Trump on 60 Minutes

[The Grand Nudger]

It doesn't make me angry, it just strikes me as unfair, especially when people talk about complete amnesty for all illegals. There are probably a lot of illegal immigrants who should get amnesty, but all of them? Doesn't that show a sort of weakness; we're effectively saying "if you can get here, you can stay here". It would effectively be an open border.

Weakness? Is it, and why is that even relevant?  So what if it were an open border?  That'd cut down on all this bullshit we're tying ourselves into knots over, wouldn't it? 

No, practical concerns matter, and I've said that there are circumstances where illegals should get amnesty, however I don't see it in all cases. I am interested in the fact that they broke the law, why wouldn't I be? We have laws for a reason, and immigration laws are there to prevent mass-migrations of people and control the population, among other things. Government has to handle the growth of the nation; that can be done by predicting birth / death rates and controlling immigration. The fact of the matter is, these people *are* criminals, whether you like it or not, and I think if you want to effectively pardon them and give them amnesty, you have to have a good reason for doing it. So far in this thread, nobody has given a good reason why we should.

Yeah, we have laws for reasons, and those reasons aren't always good ones.  Case in point, our immigration laws are based in and have led to the sorts of shit you feel compelled to scrub from your discussions of them.  Have our immigration laws prevented a mass migration, in the case of mexican immigrants?  Doesn't seem so.  They've just ensured that the mass migration that happened in spite of them was as a shitty as possible for people on whom we depend.  Yeah, they;re criminals, the sorts of criminals whoe crime was seeking out the american dream.  Forgive me if I'm not exactly impressed with their designation as-such.  How about this for a reason..there's no reason not to...and ofc people have given you reasons, I gave you three.  Whether or not you think they're good reasons is your call.

I don't really care if racists think the same thing; that doesn't change whether my argument is right or not, because I'm not making it based on race. Ironically I am an immigrant who took an American's job, but then I have a right to that job as a resident with a work permit.

You should, Tibs.  You really should, because imagining that your support and opinions can be divorced from the reality in which they would be carried out is not only ignorant, it;s dangerous.  You don't have a right to any job, there is no such right.  

OK, so maybe there aren't enough workers for the jobs; that doesn't explain the unemployment rate. Are those jobs taken by illegals factored into that at all?

No jobs are taken by illegals.  They don't -take- anything.  They are given the jobs.  Our unemployment rate is easily explained by the fact that no one would take them if they had another option.  That the people who give these jobs out rely on an underclass created by our immigration laws.  

I'm not saying we are bending over backwards for them, I'm saying we shouldn't be. Amnesty for all illegal immigrants is most certainly bending over backwards for them. Who is the "we" that is exploiting and oppressing them by the way?

How is amnesty bending over bacjkwards?  Theyre the ones working shitty jobs as shadow people.  They;d still be working shitty jobs, they just wouldn;t be shadow people.  We are the we, Tibs  You eat food, I assume?  Where do you think it comes from?  The floors get swept in the building were we work.  Who do you think does that?   The houses that we live in get built......... What, exactly, is amnesty supposed to do that could be remotely considered bending over backward? Hell, we won;t even stop telling them to go home an being cunts in the general...we're still telling black people to go home.

Of course I can disagree with your point about racism. Your point was that we shouldn't deport illegal immigrants "because we're not a bunch of racist shitlords who think that getting rid of brown people will make it magically better for us?". I don't think I ever argued that "getting rid of brown people" will make it magically better, or even that getting rid of illegals would make it better. My point was that it shouldn't be a factor.

It doesn;t matter whether or not you argued it.  That's how we -do- it.  Your support for the fantasy based version of your principles will play itself out that way.  

At some point you have to face facts, there are more illegal immigrants coming across the southern border than there are from the north. Does that mean it's ok to stop and demand papers from Mexicans? Hell no. That's not what I've argued at all. There are far more ways to detect and find illegal immigrants that stopping random people in the street.

That;s a rich comment, coming from you, in regards to all of this.  How do you plan on catching illegals to deport if you don't stop them and ask for their papers?  

Yes, their poverty is irrelevant. The only relevant fact is that they are in the country illegally. I'm sorry that they are poor; I don't want anyone to be in poverty, but at the same time, poverty is not an excuse for criminal behavior unless the situation is life or death. As I've already said, if the situation was one of life or death, then I support amnesty via the refugee programs.

You seem to be basing this whole song and dance on their criminality.  What can I say.  Some criminals, some crime.  It's important to note that this sort of narrative setting is -exactly- how the racists do their work. Gotta get rid of all those rapists and "bad hombres", amiright?

Is *my* reasoning bigoted though? I don't deny that there are racist people who think we should deport all Mexican immigrants, or illegal immigrants. However there is a difference between saying we should deport illegal immigrants because they are Mexican, and saying we should deport illegal immigrants because they are here illegally.

My reasoning is the latter, not the former. I think there are good reasons to support the latter too.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Cath.  Do you think that whatever you intend will have some effect on how it's done?  

That was a question about the chart, which was a red herring in the first place because it attempts to show every possible immigration path in one diagram, something which is going to be complicated whatever country you apply it to. Most routes aren't going to apply to any illegal immigrants in the first place. So in short, there isn't a problem with the chart, at least not in the sense that Minimalist thought there was.

You must not have been looking at the same chart, lol.  The pathways to no and loops are endless.  If I was looking at that chart, I'd cross the border illegally too.  No point in pretending that  had a shot at it.  

In that case, I'm very much against any kind of racist militia doing what they are doing, but what they are doing is also illegal. Illegal immigration isn't solved by point at the militia and saying "look at those guys, they are bad people", it's solved by talking about the actual problem and coming up with a solution.

I do want to discuss stuff with you, but talking about a militia isn't relevant to the subject, which is solving illegal immigration.

What they're doing -isn't- illegal, lol.  If you want to talk about actual solutions and actual problems you can;t retreat into fantasyland everytime someone points out a problem with what you think government -should- do.  

Now we're talking solutions.

That's a fine solution, but it only works because all countries within the EU cooperate in the same market and have representatives to make decisions for the EU itself. I don't think you can really compare the EU with America and it's surrounding nations. The EU is made up of a large number of small countries; honestly most US states are comparable with single EU countries at this point, and we do have freedom of movement...between the states.

A freedom of movement agreement over here would probably only work if Canada was involved, and several of the Latin American countries. It's a worthy suggestion though.

A far sight better than proposing that we do things, in a vacuum, which lead to the racist and counterproductive shit that's done in service -of- them, imo.

Sure, they pay payroll taxes they can never receive, but what about other taxes like income tax, which Americans pay and which fund our government. The fact they pay payroll isn't a good thing; it's just a result of the system requiring that all companies take payroll tax out of paychecks, so it's not like they are doing it voluntarily. Filing taxes once a year though, is something which Americans have to do, and illegal immigrants cannot do it, so they don't have to pay.

It's not as if they'd owe anything, Tibs.......they'd get rebates and stimulus, but ofc...they can't, lol. Illegal immigrants, in case you weren't aware...aren't rolling in money and real assets. That probably has something to do with being an underclass. Shadow people. You know what though, you want them to "have to pay".........well gee, how could we make that a reality? Maybe, by removing their underclass status, by taking them out of the shadows we thrust upon them?