RE: Serious Problems with Atheism
January 17, 2017 at 8:13 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2017 at 8:31 pm by pocaracas.)
Can I take a stab?
Very serious? are you serious?
Because... wait, what?!
Because the Universe has no meaning (etc), the terms "good" and "evil" become meaningless?
Better notify the Oxford English Dictionary guys, then!
I liked that you put the whole reference for the quote. Kudos for that!
But kudos removed for making no sense. Maybe that was deliberate?...
Good and evil are words (and concepts) which concern how We treat each other. They imply an intentional agent, intentionally carrying out an action that improves or damages some other agent.
The only intentional agents that we're aware of are animals, living right here on this planet Earth, humans being the seemingly most capable of forethought concerning consequences of their actions.
When someone says something like "religion is evil", I guess that this person is referring to the consequences of religion. Some religions are more passive than others, but all go though psycho-members that make it look bad on occasion.
But some religions have built up a track record of psycho-members.... and, worse of all, psycho leaders.... power-hungry leaders...
And we all know the old expression "with great power, comes great responsibility"... but clearly, many have abused the power. and made religion look evil.
It's true that most religious people just want to live and let live.... but there are always some that go above and beyond... and the iron-age mentality patent on the most prominent "holy books" does not bode well for the global village.
We are Star Stuff - Carl Sagan
I think you're conflating atheist with scientist.
Scientists try to discover relations between everything in the Universe in order to make sense of it... make predictions... make computers, the internet, airplanes, telephones, etc, etc, etc...
Atheists are just folk that don't acknowledge the claim made by believers in myths that the myths they believe in are accurate portrayals of reality. (unravel that sentence for extra points!)
a) you know we can switch that around to you, right?
In a god-created Universe, where the ultimate goal is to go to Heaven and be with god, why not just kill yourself and go there already?
To the Universe, the obliteration of all life on Earth will mean squat. Yes.
But, to us, it will mean extinction. I don't want to die. I'm rather fond of this planet and its inhabitants.... most of them, anyway...
Why do you keep shifting scope?
Tell me what you know about Quantum Mechanics.
Tell me what you know about Einstein's Relativity (both of them!).
Are any of them intuitive?
There are things out there that we just don't know... and the Universe's Origin story is one of those things that we may never know...
Should we make up an origin story and pretend it's the real deal, like believers do? Oh, excuse me, where are my manners? Believers don't make up the story, they just believe one that's been made up for them, way back when scientists were non-existent and people made up whatever they wanted to suppress their curiosity...
Oh wait, believers believe that the story accurately represents reality. That the story was in no way made up. That the story makes sense, is intuitive, but somehow requires faith...
But believers never think about why they believe what they do. What sequence of events led their brains to accept that story, led them to trust whoever passed the story on to them, led them to believe a particular story and not some other.
Huh?!
Funded? And why did it get funded in the first place, then? (just rolling along, because I very much doubt there's special funding to "big bang theory" - care to back that claim up with some stats?)
You know?... if the link was going to a legit site that backs up the claim, it's alright to keep it.
The rule is not meant for ALL links!
Damn mods...
Oh.... "atheistic science"? what's that?
I'll just assume you mean science.
Consciousness... hmmmm
Center for Consciousness Studies in Arizona - Seems like someone's working on it!
Live Science - Scientists Closing in on Theory of Consciousness - Seems like they're getting there...
Why do you think that consciousness is "the most basic principle of human existence"? It seems to be more bipedalism, but what-do-i-know?
Wow.... never heard of any of those... but the names put me off.
That's how I counter whatever logic you think is there: not for me.
It's okay, kid.
I have found that no believer can be intellectually honest and hold a position of not knowing the answer to a question until such a time as there is actual evidence that leads one to honestly accept a particular answer.
Instead, it seems that believers are eager to believe any answer, as long as it aligns with whatever the society that they grew up with suggested.
In your case, it seems you grew up surrounded by christianity. The myth of the Christ who was/is one person, a part of the three-personhood of god, god being some entity that created the Universe and then, since it was a bit incompetent, had to micromanage a few aspects on this tiny tiny planet... but he did so through the cunning use of a few people who got to see special stuff (not at all like hallucinations that people get nowadays, noooo. real visions of the god, of course!)... until such a time came that people needed the real deal... no more visions... 3 years of micromanaging... and then 2000 years of he said that he said, that he wrote, that he said.
bah!
Wait what?!
Believing in what?!
Oy vey...
I worry about anyone who needs the fear of a divine overseer to keep from doing whatever they want and think there are no consequences... What would happen if you somehow became aware that religion is a farce and there is most likely no god?
What sort of consequences are you alluding to?
Atheism is not counter intuitive. Take a baby, teach him about the world, how things work.... don't tell him anything about any god, except as history and anthropology. Then ask him which is intuitive.
About suspending logic, that's what mythology is all about!
I wonder why you've had abuse from atheists...
(actually, there were a few times when I thought you were a poe... naaahhh... couldn't be...
)
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: Hi everyone, I would like to present some points for atheists to consider and I trust the exchanges will be thoughtful and friendly.When was I ever anything but?!
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: There are some very serious problems for atheists to consider;Really?
Very serious? are you serious?
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 1) R. Dawkins wrote the Universe has "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." Dawkins, R., River out of Eden, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, London, p. 133, 1995.
Why do atheists constantly use words like religion is evil, atheism good, when these terms are meaningless in a Godless Universe?
Because... wait, what?!
Because the Universe has no meaning (etc), the terms "good" and "evil" become meaningless?
Better notify the Oxford English Dictionary guys, then!
I liked that you put the whole reference for the quote. Kudos for that!
But kudos removed for making no sense. Maybe that was deliberate?...
Good and evil are words (and concepts) which concern how We treat each other. They imply an intentional agent, intentionally carrying out an action that improves or damages some other agent.
The only intentional agents that we're aware of are animals, living right here on this planet Earth, humans being the seemingly most capable of forethought concerning consequences of their actions.
When someone says something like "religion is evil", I guess that this person is referring to the consequences of religion. Some religions are more passive than others, but all go though psycho-members that make it look bad on occasion.
But some religions have built up a track record of psycho-members.... and, worse of all, psycho leaders.... power-hungry leaders...
And we all know the old expression "with great power, comes great responsibility"... but clearly, many have abused the power. and made religion look evil.
It's true that most religious people just want to live and let live.... but there are always some that go above and beyond... and the iron-age mentality patent on the most prominent "holy books" does not bode well for the global village.
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 2) If you were really an atheist, you would realize that we are ALL just rearranged pond scum and life is just a set of random Meaningless events in a random Meaningless Universe.
So as an atheist, why try so hard "Meaningfully" explaining that in this utterly Meaningless Universe there's no deity?
a) Possible responses maybe; Religion is dangerous and threatens our survival; BUT in a Godless Universe, why is humanity's survival better than extinction? If humans nuke one another out of existence, what difference will that make to the Universe??
We are Star Stuff - Carl Sagan
I think you're conflating atheist with scientist.
Scientists try to discover relations between everything in the Universe in order to make sense of it... make predictions... make computers, the internet, airplanes, telephones, etc, etc, etc...
Atheists are just folk that don't acknowledge the claim made by believers in myths that the myths they believe in are accurate portrayals of reality. (unravel that sentence for extra points!)
a) you know we can switch that around to you, right?
In a god-created Universe, where the ultimate goal is to go to Heaven and be with god, why not just kill yourself and go there already?
To the Universe, the obliteration of all life on Earth will mean squat. Yes.
But, to us, it will mean extinction. I don't want to die. I'm rather fond of this planet and its inhabitants.... most of them, anyway...
Why do you keep shifting scope?
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 3) Atheism; The Universe Caused itself, no First Cause needed; this requires blind faith and is counter-intuitive; very much the same as what atheists accuse religious people of, seems hypocritical doesn't it??
Tell me what you know about Quantum Mechanics.
Tell me what you know about Einstein's Relativity (both of them!).
Are any of them intuitive?
There are things out there that we just don't know... and the Universe's Origin story is one of those things that we may never know...
Should we make up an origin story and pretend it's the real deal, like believers do? Oh, excuse me, where are my manners? Believers don't make up the story, they just believe one that's been made up for them, way back when scientists were non-existent and people made up whatever they wanted to suppress their curiosity...
Oh wait, believers believe that the story accurately represents reality. That the story was in no way made up. That the story makes sense, is intuitive, but somehow requires faith...
But believers never think about why they believe what they do. What sequence of events led their brains to accept that story, led them to trust whoever passed the story on to them, led them to believe a particular story and not some other.
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 4) The Big Bang Theory is Full of Fudge factors that are an embarrassment to Cosmologists many of whom admit the theory is popular because it is well funded, but how is that an objective search for truth?
Huh?!
Funded? And why did it get funded in the first place, then? (just rolling along, because I very much doubt there's special funding to "big bang theory" - care to back that claim up with some stats?)
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: [snip] moderator note: welcome to AF, but please review our rules, thank you. We ask newcomers not post links until 30 days and 30 posts have accrued.
You know?... if the link was going to a legit site that backs up the claim, it's alright to keep it.
The rule is not meant for ALL links!
Damn mods...
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 5) Atheistic science these days is so Dogmatically wedded to Materialism, it cannot even begin to tell us what Consciousness is, the most basic principle of human existence. Doesn't it seem hypocritical that Atheism is so dogmatic?
Oh.... "atheistic science"? what's that?
I'll just assume you mean science.
Consciousness... hmmmm
Center for Consciousness Studies in Arizona - Seems like someone's working on it!
Live Science - Scientists Closing in on Theory of Consciousness - Seems like they're getting there...
Why do you think that consciousness is "the most basic principle of human existence"? It seems to be more bipedalism, but what-do-i-know?
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: 6) And BTW atheism has led to some pretty strange philosophies, like that of the Church of Euthanasia; Save the Planet, Kill Yourself! How can Atheists counter such "logic"?
Wow.... never heard of any of those... but the names put me off.
That's how I counter whatever logic you think is there: not for me.
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: As a Christian I have experienced that no Atheist on earth has any convincing arguments to these most basic questions which I believe only the Christian religion can answer.
It's okay, kid.
I have found that no believer can be intellectually honest and hold a position of not knowing the answer to a question until such a time as there is actual evidence that leads one to honestly accept a particular answer.
Instead, it seems that believers are eager to believe any answer, as long as it aligns with whatever the society that they grew up with suggested.
In your case, it seems you grew up surrounded by christianity. The myth of the Christ who was/is one person, a part of the three-personhood of god, god being some entity that created the Universe and then, since it was a bit incompetent, had to micromanage a few aspects on this tiny tiny planet... but he did so through the cunning use of a few people who got to see special stuff (not at all like hallucinations that people get nowadays, noooo. real visions of the god, of course!)... until such a time came that people needed the real deal... no more visions... 3 years of micromanaging... and then 2000 years of he said that he said, that he wrote, that he said.
bah!
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: I'll be honest, believing in Atheism would be so much easier in life because you can do whatever you want and think there is no consequences, but Ahteism seems so incredibly counter intuitive, that to even begin to take it seriously, one has to suspend all logic.
Wait what?!
Believing in what?!
Oy vey...
I worry about anyone who needs the fear of a divine overseer to keep from doing whatever they want and think there are no consequences... What would happen if you somehow became aware that religion is a farce and there is most likely no god?
What sort of consequences are you alluding to?
Atheism is not counter intuitive. Take a baby, teach him about the world, how things work.... don't tell him anything about any god, except as history and anthropology. Then ask him which is intuitive.
About suspending logic, that's what mythology is all about!
(January 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Pulse Wrote: Thoughts?
(Again please keep it friendly, Ive had too much abuse from atheists already just for asking simple questions, and that just seems further proof to me Atheism is a delusion).
I wonder why you've had abuse from atheists...
(actually, there were a few times when I thought you were a poe... naaahhh... couldn't be...
)
