Serious Problems with Atheism

[Asmodee]

Hi everyone, I would like to present some points for atheists to consider and I trust the exchanges will be thoughtful and friendly. 

Lol, good luck with that.

There are some very serious problems for atheists to consider;  

1)    R. Dawkins wrote the Universe has "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." Dawkins, R., River out of Eden, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, London, p. 133, 1995.
        Why do atheists constantly use words like religion is evil, atheism good, when these terms are meaningless in a Godless Universe?

Religion is evil because it has done/caused evil things. You won't convince an atheist he'll get 72 virgins after he blows himself up to kill a bunch of innocent people. The terms "good" and "evil" are not meaningless in a godless universe. That is you projecting your beliefs onto the universe. Those word have meaning to we human beings, but, and here's the key, the meaning is different to each person. It is a personal meaning, not the universal meaning you believe to exist. If you were perfectly honest with yourself you would be forced to admit that some of the things God is said to have done in the Bible...they seem pretty damned evil. You would certainly see them as evil if you didn't know they were coming from your God, who you perceive as being incapable of evil, therefore those things must not be evil.

2) If you were really an atheist, you would realize that we are ALL just rearranged pond scum and life is just a set of random Meaningless events in a random Meaningless Universe. 
    So as an atheist, why try so hard "Meaningfully" explaining  that in this utterly Meaningless Universe there's no deity?

Meaning assigned to my life by me instead of a higher power is still meaning. It has meaning to me. You are trying to look at my beliefs through the shit-colored glasses of your own. I have seen this before. When you try to imagine "There is no God" the best you can muster is "I have rejected God" and it conjures up a pretty bleak picture for you. But my life is not a rejection of a God who really exists, it's simply not believing in a God who does not exist. Does your life have meaning to you now? If there is no God then you must have assigned that meaning yourself. Just because you believe it came from God doesn't mean it does and it's certainly pretty ignorant to believe life cannot possibly have meaning to anyone who doesn't hold your beliefs.

    a) Possible responses maybe; Religion is dangerous and threatens our survival; BUT in a Godless Universe, why is humanity's survival better than extinction? If humans nuke one another out of existence, what difference will that make to the Universe?? 

Now you're just being stupid. Why is a worm's existence better than extinction to the worm? It just is.

3) Atheism; The Universe Caused itself, no First Cause needed; this requires blind faith and is counter-intuitive; very much the same as what atheists accuse religious people of, seems hypocritical doesn't it??

Again, stupid. How could a thing cause itself? Nobody believes this. If you can't be bothered to learn some basic science you really shouldn't argue as if you know some.

4) The Big Bang Theory is Full of Fudge factors that are an embarrassment to Cosmologists many of whom admit the theory is popular because it is well funded, but how is that an objective search for truth? 

Each thing you say is dumber than the last. Scientists didn't just pull big bang theory out of there asses and start insisting it was right one day. They studied the universe and they noted that everything in the universe is moving away from everything else. This told them that the universe was expanding. They studied more and found that the further away objects are, the faster they are moving away from us. This told them that the expansion is accelerating. They studied it some more and some more until they finally had a formula that could reliably predict how fast an object a certain distance away should be moving away from us. They applied this formula to determine how fast the universe was expanding and the rate at which the speed of that expansion was increasing. Once they had all the math which they could show to be pretty reliable going forward, they ran it backward to see, not the future of how the universe would expand, but the past. They ran it backward all the way to the point where the math simply fell apart, reaching zeros and infinities. That point they named a "singularity". Big bang theory is essentially the mathematical model we have of the expansion of the universe run backward to the point where the math doesn't work any more. If it works going forward, and it does, then it should work going backward as well.

5)   Atheistic science these days is so Dogmatically wedded to Materialism, it cannot even begin to tell us what Consciousness is, the most basic principle of human existence. Doesn't it seem hypocritical that Atheism is so dogmatic?

Man, you are pretty predictably saying something dumber than the last thing you said each and every time. There is no such thing as "atheistic science". Atheism is a religious view. Science is a method of examining the natural world. Theists as of late sure like to throw around the word "materialistic". What do you expect the study of natural phenomena to study? Ghosts?

 6)  And BTW atheism has led to some pretty strange philosophies, like that of the Church of Euthanasia; Save the Planet, Kill Yourself! How can Atheists counter such "logic"?[/quote\
I don't even have to look that up to know it's a bad joke. Looking it up, the Reverand Korda, the church's leader and founder, also tried to run the Unibomber for president in the mid '90s. Do they not have satire where you come from?

[quote='Pulse' pid='1488777' dateline='1484688884']
As a Christian I have experienced that no Atheist on earth has any convincing arguments to these most basic questions which I believe only the Christian religion can answer. I'll be honest, believing in Atheism would be so much easier in life because you can do whatever you want and think there is no consequences, but Ahteism seems so incredibly counter intuitive, that to even begin to take it seriously, one has to suspend all logic.

Thoughts? 
(Again please keep it friendly, Ive had too much abuse from atheists already just for asking simple questions, and that just seems further proof to me Atheism is a delusion).

Christians often only hear what they want to hear, and you certainly fit that bill if you're bringing up the Church of Euthanasia as some kind of dig on atheists. I had never heard of it before. What does it have to do with me?

You don't "believe in atheism". Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. But yes, it is much easier to be an atheist than a Christian, but not for the reasons you're thinking. I don't have to do the constant mental gymnastics to maintain belief that I used to do. I don't, for instance, have to try to reconcile "loving god" and "light me on fire for all eternity". After all, "light me on fire for all eternity" is not a property one would generally associate with a "loving god". Believe it or not, it takes a hell of a lot of work to keep facts and thought out of your brain to maintain magical beliefs. It's a lot of work. As for doing what I want, though, you would be hard pressed to name much that I actually "do" that I could not do as a member of "name a religion".

How is it counter intuitive to say, "Well, I don't see any magic around anywhere, so, those stories in the Bible of people casting magic spells left and right, that probably doesn't happen today because they were primitive people with stupid magical beliefs." Atheism is the conclusion most of us reach after serious critical thought. How is it illogical to say that I don't believe in any deities? That is certainly no less logical than to say, "I don't have any proof of this, but my deity is the one, true deity and all others are fairy tales because that's what the bible says." The difference between you and me is I believe in one less god than you.

"Being a dick" and "being delusional" are not the same thing and, frankly, that comes off as a little whiny. Yeah, atheists are often pompous dicks. But how is that evidence that we're delusional? I'll tell you what it's evidence of. It's evidence that a traditionally marginalized populous is finally able to speak freely without persecution...so long as we do it anonymously on the Internet, anyway. Christians are always talking about how persecuted they are. Hell, that's the last thing you said, essentially. That atheists have persecuted you. Well, how many countries is it legal for atheists to kill you for your beliefs? ZERO. How many countries is it legal for religious people to kill me because I'm an atheist? Seven, last I knew. Here's another one. Name a place in the United States that EVER had a law on the books that if you were Christian you couldn't hold public office. That would again be ZERO. Do you know how long it would take me to do the research to name all the places in the US that had a law on the books that atheists couldn't hold public office? How about the argument from a couple years ago that an atheist couldn't lead the opening prayer before, I forget what government meeting? How about the argument from around that time that an atheist wasn't qualified to be a chaplain in the military? And how many parents had to take a school to court to fight for their right to stop teachers from insisting to their kids that God wasn't real? Hey, we have another ZERO. Yet atheists, as well as other non-Christians such as Jews, CONSTANTLY have to fight school systems to keep Christianity out of the schools. Ever been to a court house with a stone out front etched with the words, "Save the Planet, Kill Yourself!"? No? None? Can you find me one with the Ten Commandments out front or inside? I'm sure I can given half a minute and an Internet connection.

So to that last bit I will say, let me hold you under MY boot for a few decades and see if you don't get a little pissed off at me by the time you finally start to wiggle yourself free. Then maybe you'll understand why atheists can be a little snide, a little testy and very rude. But don't feel badly. We treat each other that way too. Hell, I'm currently all pissed off at Faith is Filth in another thread, and he's being a real prick to me too. So what? Am I going to cry about it? Maybe in the thread. Is he going to cry about it? Judging by his posts so far, I highly doubt it. Are we now mortal enemies? Only in that thread. Is he stupid and wrong? Of course he is. I'm an atheist. NOBODY is smarter than me

[brewer]

I'll just say hello and then ponder your continued participation here.

BTW, and no offense, god and religion are a mam made fantasy delusion that I choose not to participate in. If you have some tangible evidence other than testimony and anecdote (not evidence) I'm willing to listen.

[Alex K]

Those points in the OP don't seem to be arguments against atheism at all. Even if there was some shmoe somewhere out there who does all these alleged things and also is an atheist, that doesn't have much bearing on the validity of atheism...

[TheRealJoeFish]

This is good... I need the weekly chuckle from these sorts

---

I mean, there's gotta be, like, five threads with this exact same title, right?

[Faith No More]

This is good... I need the weekly chuckle from these sorts

---

I mean, there's gotta be, like, five threads with this exact same title, right?

And pretty much the same questions, too.

I'm starting to think that there's a list of questions circulating the internet about how to destroy atheism.

[ignoramus]

OP, do you believe in astrology? Give us your reasons why not?

(Could it be because it doesn't offer you an afterlife?)

[brewer]

This is good... I need the weekly chuckle from these sorts

---

I mean, there's gotta be, like, five threads with this exact same title, right?

And pretty much the same questions, too.

I'm starting to think that there's a list of questions circulating the internet about how to destroy atheism.

Agree. I believe someone said it prior, but I don't think this individual has had any interaction with atheists. They only know what the church has told them. 

Wonder what will happen when they find out that many atheists here know the bible better than them.

[Jesster]

[brewer]

It's only been two hours. Let's wait and see if god is on his side.

[pocaracas]

Can I take a stab?

Hi everyone, I would like to present some points for atheists to consider and I trust the exchanges will be thoughtful and friendly. 

When was I ever anything but?!

There are some very serious problems for atheists to consider;  

Really?
Very serious? are you serious?

1)    R. Dawkins wrote the Universe has "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." Dawkins, R., River out of Eden, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, London, p. 133, 1995.
        Why do atheists constantly use words like religion is evil, atheism good, when these terms are meaningless in a Godless Universe?

Because... wait, what?!
Because the Universe has no meaning (etc), the terms "good" and "evil" become meaningless?
Better notify the Oxford English Dictionary guys, then!

I liked that you put the whole reference for the quote. Kudos for that!

But kudos removed for making no sense. Maybe that was deliberate?...

Good and evil are words (and concepts) which concern how We treat each other. They imply an intentional agent, intentionally carrying out an action that improves or damages some other agent.
The only intentional agents that we're aware of are animals, living right here on this planet Earth, humans being the seemingly most capable of forethought concerning consequences of their actions.

When someone says something like "religion is evil", I guess that this person is referring to the consequences of religion. Some religions are more passive than others, but all go though psycho-members that make it look bad on occasion.
But some religions have built up a track record of psycho-members.... and, worse of all, psycho leaders.... power-hungry leaders...
And we all know the old expression "with great power, comes great responsibility"... but clearly, many have abused the power. and made religion look evil.
It's true that most religious people just want to live and let live.... but there are always some that go above and beyond... and the iron-age mentality patent on the most prominent "holy books" does not bode well for the global village.

2) If you were really an atheist, you would realize that we are ALL just rearranged pond scum and life is just a set of random Meaningless events in a random Meaningless Universe. 
    So as an atheist, why try so hard "Meaningfully" explaining  that in this utterly Meaningless Universe there's no deity?

    a) Possible responses maybe; Religion is dangerous and threatens our survival; BUT in a Godless Universe, why is humanity's survival better than extinction? If humans nuke one another out of existence, what difference will that make to the Universe?? 

We are Star Stuff - Carl Sagan
I think you're conflating atheist with scientist.
Scientists try to discover relations between everything in the Universe in order to make sense of it... make predictions... make computers, the internet, airplanes, telephones, etc, etc, etc...
Atheists are just folk that don't acknowledge the claim made by believers in myths that the myths they believe in are accurate portrayals of reality. (unravel that sentence for extra points!)

a) you know we can switch that around to you, right?
In a god-created Universe, where the ultimate goal is to go to Heaven and be with god, why not just kill yourself and go there already?
To the Universe, the obliteration of all life on Earth will mean squat. Yes.
But, to us, it will mean extinction. I don't want to die. I'm rather fond of this planet and its inhabitants.... most of them, anyway...
Why do you keep shifting scope?

3) Atheism; The Universe Caused itself, no First Cause needed; this requires blind faith and is counter-intuitive; very much the same as what atheists accuse religious people of, seems hypocritical doesn't it??

Tell me what you know about Quantum Mechanics.
Tell me what you know about Einstein's Relativity (both of them!).

Are any of them intuitive?

There are things out there that we just don't know... and the Universe's Origin story is one of those things that we may never know...
Should we make up an origin story and pretend it's the real deal, like believers do? Oh, excuse me, where are my manners? Believers don't make up the story, they just believe one that's been made up for them, way back when scientists were non-existent and people made up whatever they wanted to suppress their curiosity...
Oh wait, believers believe that the story accurately represents reality. That the story was in no way made up. That the story makes sense, is intuitive, but somehow requires faith...
But believers never think about why they believe what they do. What sequence of events led their brains to accept that story, led them to trust whoever passed the story on to them, led them to believe a particular story and not some other.

4) The Big Bang Theory is Full of Fudge factors that are an embarrassment to Cosmologists many of whom admit the theory is popular because it is well funded, but how is that an objective search for truth? 

Huh?!
Funded? And why did it get funded in the first place, then? (just rolling along, because I very much doubt there's special funding to "big bang theory" - care to back that claim up with some stats?)

 [snip] moderator note: welcome to AF, but please review our rules, thank you. We ask newcomers not post links until 30 days and 30 posts have accrued.

You know?... if the link was going to a legit site that backs up the claim, it's alright to keep it.
The rule is not meant for ALL links!
Damn mods...

5)   Atheistic science these days is so Dogmatically wedded to Materialism, it cannot even begin to tell us what Consciousness is, the most basic principle of human existence. Doesn't it seem hypocritical that Atheism is so dogmatic?

Oh.... "atheistic science"? what's that?
I'll just assume you mean science.
Consciousness... hmmmm
Center for Consciousness Studies in Arizona - Seems like someone's working on it!

Live Science - Scientists Closing in on Theory of Consciousness - Seems like they're getting there...

Why do you think that consciousness is "the most basic principle of human existence"? It seems to be more bipedalism, but what-do-i-know?

 6)  And BTW atheism has led to some pretty strange philosophies, like that of the Church of Euthanasia; Save the Planet, Kill Yourself! How can Atheists counter such "logic"?

Wow.... never heard of any of those... but the names put me off.
That's how I counter whatever logic you think is there: not for me.

As a Christian I have experienced that no Atheist on earth has any convincing arguments to these most basic questions which I believe only the Christian religion can answer.

It's okay, kid.
I have found that no believer can be intellectually honest and hold a position of not knowing the answer to a question until such a time as there is actual evidence that leads one to honestly accept a particular answer.
Instead, it seems that believers are eager to believe any answer, as long as it aligns with whatever the society that they grew up with suggested.
In your case, it seems you grew up surrounded by christianity. The myth of the Christ who was/is one person, a part of the three-personhood of god, god being some entity that created the Universe and then, since it was a bit incompetent, had to micromanage a few aspects on this tiny tiny planet... but he did so through the cunning use of a few people who got to see special stuff (not at all like hallucinations that people get nowadays, noooo. real visions of the god, of course!)... until such a time came that people needed the real deal... no more visions... 3 years of micromanaging... and then 2000 years of he said that he said, that he wrote, that he said.
bah!

I'll be honest, believing in Atheism would be so much easier in life because you can do whatever you want and think there is no consequences, but Ahteism seems so incredibly counter intuitive, that to even begin to take it seriously, one has to suspend all logic.

Wait what?!
Believing in what?!
Oy vey...
I worry about anyone who needs the fear of a divine overseer to keep from doing whatever they want and think there are no consequences...  What would happen if you somehow became aware that religion is a farce and there is most likely no god?
What sort of consequences are you alluding to?

Atheism is not counter intuitive. Take a baby, teach him about the world, how things work.... don't tell him anything about any god, except as history and anthropology. Then ask him which is intuitive.
About suspending logic, that's what mythology is all about!

Thoughts? 
(Again please keep it friendly, Ive had too much abuse from atheists already just for asking simple questions, and that just seems further proof to me Atheism is a delusion).

I wonder why you've had abuse from atheists...


(actually, there were a few times when I thought you were a poe... naaahhh... couldn't be...   )