RE: How long will Christians wait for Jesus?
February 23, 2017 at 1:36 pm
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2017 at 1:40 pm by SteveII.)
(February 23, 2017 at 12:17 pm)HairyCyclist Wrote:(February 23, 2017 at 12:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: Starting by describing my response as "bullshit" -- you haven't gotten the hang of a respectful conversation yet I see.
Before it was to characterize us all as "worthless sinners". Now you have modified to "sinful or unworthy". The former speaks to value and the latter speaks to a current condition. You are heading in the right direction. Two things:
1. Presuming you are a naturalist, my worldview teaches that humans have more value than yours does.
2. My worldview believes in a Holy God and therefore, by comparison, the human condition is sinful and unworthy.
So I restate: the disrespect you are feeling is of your own making and of course is not causing "harm".
Sorry, I will try harder.
1.Please explain how.
2.My worldview has no room for any God, so I view humanity with more affection than you.
So the disrespect towards humanity shown by Christians ( your point number 2) doesn't sit well with me.
1. Khem and I are going back and forth in another thread on this. I intend to reply to him tonight, but in general Naturalism teaches that we are the product of time and chance (evolution). That process cannot endow us with intrinsic (defined as belonging naturally, essential) value any more than anything else that evolved. I am not saying that we don't have value, but rather that the value comes from things we can do and not simply because we exist.
If God exists, he created us for a purpose and gives us intrinsic (defined as belonging naturally, essential) value/meaning/purpose. For example, take a block of wood. It has the properties of wood (fiberous, organic, brown, hard, etc.). If a craftsman take the block of wood and transforms it into a chair, it now has the new properties and purpose of being a chair. If it had grown into something that looks like a chair, we could not call it a chair and it would not have those properties and purpose of being a chair.
2. No, you view humanity as fine the way it is. I believe a relationship with God is needed and can make it better. Christians believe that humans were made in the image of God. How much more respect do you need?
(February 23, 2017 at 12:37 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:(February 23, 2017 at 9:45 am)SteveII Wrote: Except you are grossly mischaracterizing Christianity's doctrine on humans to make your point (straw man). The correct view is that God sees humans of infinite worth and so warranted the ultimate sacrifice of death on a cross to redeem them. Not exactly teaching that we are "worthless sinners" is it? So the disrespect you are feeling is of your own making and of course is not causing "harm".
So if you redeem infinite worth what do you get? Infinite infinite worth?
If humans are of infinite worth why would they need redemption? So the infinite worth won't be thrown into the incinerator by your god?
If you redeem a valuable from a pawn shop, does it change the value? I don't think Christianity teaches that our eternal soul changes in value upon redemption or eternal separation from God (Hell).