(February 23, 2017 at 11:41 am)Asmodee Wrote:(February 23, 2017 at 1:24 am)Godschild Wrote:As I've said, there is a difference between God the son and Jesus. As YOU have said, God the son always was. But Jesus was born. He lived. He died. He was resurrected. God the son cannot be tempted because he is God, only. Jesus was tempted. Yes, they are the same person in one sense, but in another they are not.
You're correct in saying they are one and the same, however for me there is no but to it. I'll explain as I go along. By the way what denomination did you grow up in?
Asmodee Wrote:Think of it like body and soul. Let's assume that God created all the souls for all the people who ever would be during that six days. They are off somewhere, waiting to be born as a human being. Now let's say there is one soul waiting for a body. We'll call him Jeff. Jeff is a soul waiting to be put into a body. That body hasn't been conceived yet. When it is, at the appropriate time, God will put Jeff the soul into the body and Jeff will eventually be born as a brand new person, live his life and die. So did Jeff always exist or was Jeff born, live to be 83 years old and die a grandfather?
Something you need to know about me l do not do what ifs most of the time and l can't do it here. God did not create all the spirits of man at the beginning. I understand more than one prophet said God knew him before he was in the womb. This is in reference to God's omnipresence and knowledge of all things for all time. This was a statement by the prophet to honor God. There is nothing in Scripture that says God created all souls that will ever be during the six day creation period. When Jeff was conceived he was given a soul and as Paul says, "to be absent from the body is to be with God." Meaning when Jeff's body died Jeff went to be with God. The NT makes it quite clear that the body is only a shell for Jeff or any of us to reside in here and now. Jesus said, "what good does it do for a man to gain the whole world yet lose his soul." Jesus is more interested in saving the soul, why, because that is us the conscious us. The body died and rots away. It's true that at the second coming each of us will receive a new body but, will it be the same one we had? What does all this mean, that what lives inside this body of ours is who we are, the body doesn't matter except to other humans.
Asmodee Wrote: ......But Jeff the soul is different than Jeff the man. Being Jeff the man changes Jeff the soul. Jeff the soul, before Jeff the man, was innocent. He had never been tempted. He had never sinned.
As I pointed out above Jeff the soul is Jeff, the body is present to house the soul, the body is there for this physical world. Jeff doesn't need his body to be Jeff. When Jeff was born he was a sinner by birth. So how could that be if Jeff the soul had never sinned.
Asmodee Wrote:When Jeff the man was born his trials began and Jeff the soul was changed by life in flesh. Before that Jeff the soul was eternal and unchanging. If judgement had happened before Jeff the soul got a body then Jeff the soul goes straight to Heaven. After he got a body and lived his life, only then is it up to him.
Now you are outside biblical doctrine, Jeff could never be innocent nor eternal. Again outside biblical doctrine, Jeff can't go to heaven by your own admittance Jeff hasn't existed yet, your description in the what if idea, you said he would have to be born of flesh first.
Asmodee Wrote:A very straightforward case can be made that, without a body, a soul never changes. That's why there is no forgiveness after death. That's why your place in the afterlife will be eternal. I don't think you would argue with the statement that no soul cast into Hell will ever attain redemption and a place in Heaven, just as no soul in Heaven will ever fall and be cast into Hell. The soul, without flesh, is eternal and unchanging. It is only through flesh that the spirit can change, be tested, be tempted, be tried.
The body and soul never physically existed until born into this world. After death you say the soul can't change and you are right. The chance for redemption of the soul is lost after death. You're also correct in saying that temptation only comes when the body and soul are together as one. When the soul returns to the spiritual realm all is over concerning ones eternal destination.
Asmodee Wrote:And that is the difference between God the son and Jesus. Jesus was tempted for 40 days. Could the Holy Spirit be tempted? Could God be tempted? No and no. Could God the son, without the flesh, be tempted? No.
You're right the Trinity can not be tempted but, we are speaking of the God who is above all temptation. Jesus had to be tempted and had to be able to fail so that Satan could not accuse God of stacking the deck. God the Son came to reside in a body of flesh so He could be tempted in the flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for man. God the Son laid down all His powers to come and live as a man, scripture tells us this. Jesus received His power from the Father, Jesus could not have fail if all the Son's powers had come with Him. Jesus also used the scriptures to rebuke Satan, the word was more powerful than the most powerful being ever created and why, because Christ is the word.
Asmodee Wrote:Could Jesus have failed the test? Was it possible for him to fail? Yes. If it weren't possible then his trial would have been pointless. Flesh made him weak. Flesh made him different. Flesh made it possible to tempt him. He fasted for 40 days. Is that a problem for a god? No. They don't eat. But it is a problem for a man, and a big one. Is a god tempted to have sex? No. Was Jesus? Absolutely. If his parts worked and biology worked then as it does now he was absolutely tempted to have sex. Can this world offer ANYTHING which might have the most remote chance of ever tempting a god, ESPECIALLY the god who made it all? No. But this world can certainly tempt a man.
Yes, I've already agreed that Jesus was temptable and there had to be the possibility of failure. That temptation had to come while He resided in a body of flesh but, if He had not laid down his powers in heaven He could not fail, essentially it was laying down his powers that made him susceptible to sin. Just because the Son of God came to live in a body of flesh and suffer the weaknesses of the flesh doesn't negate the fact He was the Son of God. As I stated in my last post, at Jesus baptism the Father said this is my Son. There's no getting around this fact that God's Son resided in a fleshly body and was called Jesus. I can't understand how you can argue that the Son of God was two different beings, especially when the scriptures do not say that.
Asmodee Wrote:Getting back to why we're even having this stupid argument, you said that "free will" is the choice to accept, specifically, Christ or reject him and that has always been the choice. You are wrong about that. You just are. First, the term "free will" is a lot more general than you are making it, but let's put that aside and just look at "accepting Christ". Why Christ? Why would you have to accept a specific, single aspect of God only? Isn't the choice really to accept "God"? The Christ was merely a pathway to God as a whole, not the end-all, worship only this part of God. The Christ is not a specific object of worship, just one of three aspects of God. It is God, as a whole, which we are required to accept. That is why there was no mention of accepting Christ or God the son in the Old Testament, just accepting God.
My statement was this and still is, the only free will "we" have is to accept Jesus for who He is, the Son of God. When you accept Jesus as God's Son you are accepting the entire Godhead. GOD is the Trinity, the Trinity was involved in creation, in dealing with the fall and bringing salvation to a lost world. Maybe there's something you do not understand about the Trinity, there is an order to it, not in the sense of one is above the others, more in the order that there is a chain of command. You will have to read and study the NT to see it but it is there. It goes like this an order that we always speak when we refer to the Trinity, God the Father to whom God the Son is obedient to, God the Son whom the Holy Spirit is always obedient to. It's the way our families are to be. No one in the family is more important than any other member, the wife is obedient to the father's the children are to be obedient to the mother and father. Unfortunately our families are not like the Trinity, everything the Trinity does in their relationship is from a perfect love.
Asmodee Wrote:The Christ is not special. It's not God's best part. You can't accept only the Christ but not the other two parts. This was NEVER the choice. It isn't even the choice now. The Christ is merely the path by which you get to God as a whole. You were wrong with that statement.
Without Christ there is no forgiveness of sin, without forgiveness of sin there is no redemption and without redemption there is no salvation, this is repeated throughout the NT. This is how important Christ is, the Father made it this way. All three in the Godhead are just as important as the other and we worship all three as GOD. Each one functions in their own agreed upon way with us so that we may be redeemed and worship our GOD.
GC
PS I have a friend with Alzheimer's and yes it is scary, I believe everyone has a fright about it. Never meant to disrespect you.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
