RE: Theists: What is the most compelling argument you have heard for Atheism?
March 20, 2017 at 3:17 pm
(March 20, 2017 at 2:58 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:(March 20, 2017 at 2:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: Along with other things, the NT contains all kind of evidence. So, there seems to be evidence. You may not know enough about it to find it compelling evidence, but you can't make the claim there is none.
No it doesn't, the new testament contains claims unsupported by evidence.
By your standard any claim ever made anywhere by anyone must be seen as evidence. So all those people who say the world is flat is evidence that the world is flat or people who believe in trolls or fairies or angels because they believe it is evidence for those things.
It is the claim and not evidence.
Two issues (both of which I posted recently in another thread).
The first is Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Proof is a conclusion about the truth of something after analyzing the evidence. Evidence is suggestive of a conclusion. Proof is concrete and conclusive.
Proof can have different thresholds. Anywhere from more likely than not (preponderance of the evidence), to beyond a reasonable doubt, to absolute. These are all arrived at by considering evidence.
So, to say that my list is not evidence is simply wrong. What you mean is that in your opinion, it is not proof. That's fine, I don't care what your opinion is.
The second issue is the New Testament not being the claim:
1. The gospels and Acts catalog the claim. The balance are letters discussing and applying the claim.
2. The NT consists of 27 different documents written over 50 years time (give or take). It's a little bit of an understatement to describe such a diverse collection of palaeographical gold as "NT claims" as if it were one thing.
No, the claim is that the events outlined in the gospels really happened--one in particular: that Jesus Christ, the son of God, came to earth to redeem humanity and provide a way for people to have a relationship with God. Evidence for this claim are the people and events surrounding the life of Jesus that the authors wrote about. It is not as if the gospel writers wrote an essay on what people were saying and gave no opinion on the facts. They were testifying to its truthfulness (as evidenced by their own experience or, in the case of Luke, by interviewing eyewitnesses as they wrote it.
In addition, the NT points out several pieces of additional evidence:
- There were churches in many major cities stretching from Palestine to Rome before Paul started to write his letters to them around 50ad. Not only were there churches, but they believed in the major events outlined in the gospels prior to the gospels and Paul's letters.
- Paul quotes several creeds in his letters that appear to have been used among the early church prior to his letters.
- Many historians think that there existed another document Q that predates the gospels and we can reconstruct parts of it from the gospels.
