Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: April 27, 2025, 5:00 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Theists: What is the most compelling argument you have heard for Atheism?
RE: Theists: What is the most compelling argument you have heard for Atheism?
(March 21, 2017 at 5:15 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:
(March 21, 2017 at 8:36 am)SteveII Wrote: 1. No, unlike Zeus, we have evidence that people actually saw him in person, recording his words, performing miracles. The additional evidence of significant numbers of followers spread throughout the empire within the lifetime of eyewitnesses strengthens the documentary evidence. It is a cumulative case.

No we don't. As I proved to you previously the first mention of Yeshua bar Yosef was in a book written at least 75 years after his birth and forty after his death, as a third hand account.

Paul wrote his first surviving letter in 50AD. That would be about 20 years after Jesus' death. And who was he writing the letter to? An already established church 1500 miles away. I wonder what was happening in the intervening 20 years. 

Quote:
Quote:2. I don't believe I have inferred anything from Tacitus except my point that there were substantial numbers of Christians in Rome only 35 years following the Crucifixion.

And in that inferral you are also wrong. All we can reliably infer from Tacitus is that 1) the reference to Yeshua was an 11th century forgery and 2) by the time Tacitus wrote his histories there was a christian community of indeterminate (but probably tiny given other available evidence) size in the city.

You can always find an expert to give you the answer you want. 

Quote:
Quote:3. The Thallus reference was about the darkness. The Talmud later talks of Jesus being an evil sorcerer. You forget that the vast majority of writers were interested in political history (politics, kings, emperors, military, territory). In the first century, they were not interested in what they saw as an offshoot of a minority religion in a region that would soon be crushed and dispersed.

The Thallus reference brings up a good point. How many histories were lost to time? Most could not read or write, materials had a short shelf life, the environments were harsh, and wars and politics moved things around over generations.

Yeah, and? We all know that christianity was essentially a minor jewish heresy until Constantine adopted and refounded it as Rome's religion in 325CE. And for histories being lost to time, well you can thank christianity for the loss of many major Roman and Greek historical works, they hunted down and burnt anything that disagreed with their invented story about their religion.

So goes your theory

Quote:
Quote:4. Are you denying that Josephus ever mentioned Jesus (which was my point)? If so, you are in the very small minority.

Yes. The Yeshua insertion into his Antiquities was obviously an insertion by Eusebius whose whole career was made from "finding" contemporary writings mentioning Yeshua. When Photios I, Patriarch of Constantinople (and the 10th century's leading scholar on christian writings) calls out a passage as an obvious fake, you can bet your arse it is.

Arguing about one passage or another does not change the fact that most scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus in some way.

Quote:
Quote:5. Are you denying that Christianity had spread all across the Roman Empire? Seriously? How would you explain everything we have dated from the end of the first century through the second and third? There is a consistent thread that can be followed all the way from Paul and the Gospels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ea...an_writers

Yes, at the point of a sword. Christianity was a minor jewish heresy until adopted by the Roman Empire as it's official religion mid way through the 4th century. All other religions were wiped out in a bloodbath (which christian apologists later appropriated in order to create martyrs to bolster their credentials).

So goes your far fetched theory. Explain these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ea...an_writers. Doesn't much sound like point of the sword to me. 

Quote:
Quote:6. With Jersalem being leveled in 70AD. How much writing (which was scarce enough) would have been lost in such a time?

You're talking about the period in Principate history where the most abundant written documentation remains, and an area for which we have extensive records extant from that period. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we have a sufficiency to conclude that if Yeshua wasn't a complete invention, then he was a total non-entity until well after he died.

The evidence does not even suggest that. Fringe theories again. Do you only read atheist conspiracy blogs? 

Quote:
Quote:7. I think you overstate your case, but nevermind. This is only proof that people did not think an offshoot of a minor religion in the corner of the empire important during the first generation of its adherents.

Actually the proof that christianity was unimportant lies in the fact that it's adherence was tiny right up until it was appropriated by the Roman Empire for its own ends.

More nonsense. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Chri...ristianity
 Key sentences in the opening paragraph:
Quote:Apostles (see Apostolic see) and other Christian soldiers, merchants, and preachers founded early church communities in northern Africa, Asia Minor, Armenia, Caucasian Albania, Arabia, Greece, and other places.[61][62][63][64] Over forty existed by the year 100,[62][63] many in Asia Minor, such as the seven churches of Asia. By the end of the 1st century, Christianity had spread to Greece and Italy, even India.

Quote:
Quote:8. Are you throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks? There are tons of articles that examine every point you think you make by bring these things up. Pick one with some links if you want to discuss them separately.

You're the one with nothing, you're the one flinging excrement at windmills. We have a sufficiency of evidence for our opinions. You have not one shred of evidence for your beliefs.

"Our opinions"? Dude, your opinion is fringe at best--even among atheists. And the reason is, your theory does not fit the evidence we have.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Theists: What is the most compelling argument you have heard for Atheism? - by SteveII - March 22, 2017 at 5:48 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Exclamation Why Atheism is Incoherent & You Aren't as Smart as You Think You Are Seax 60 8030 March 19, 2021 at 9:43 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  Theists: how do you account for psychopaths? robvalue 288 55548 March 5, 2021 at 6:37 am
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Theists: What do you mean when you say that God is 'perfect'? Angrboda 103 22752 March 5, 2021 at 6:35 am
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Theists, please describe how you experience your god I_am_not_mafia 161 23860 June 15, 2018 at 9:37 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Theists, Who would You Rather Have as a Neighbor Rhondazvous 23 8875 November 10, 2017 at 6:44 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  Baha'i Faith, have you heard of it? Silver 22 4373 October 23, 2017 at 12:48 pm
Last Post: Harry Nevis
  Should Theists have the burden of proof at the police and court? Vast Vision 16 6169 July 10, 2017 at 1:34 pm
Last Post: Jesster
  Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of? SuperSentient 169 30856 April 1, 2017 at 9:43 pm
Last Post: Neo-Scholastic
  What do you think of this argument for God? SuperSentient 140 25897 March 19, 2017 at 1:19 pm
Last Post: RoadRunner79
  Theists: would you view the truth? robvalue 154 25031 December 25, 2016 at 2:29 am
Last Post: Godscreated



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)