(March 27, 2017 at 9:07 pm)ma5t3r0fpupp3t5 Wrote:(March 27, 2017 at 1:34 pm)SteveII Wrote: Do they all need a mind? Do you think that in all possible worlds (including those without minds) that if P then Q; P therefore Q would not be the case? Most think that the applicability of mathematics would exists even if a mind never contemplated them.
Your real conundrum will be that your sole source of knowledge, science, presupposes logic, mathematics, and philosophy. If it presupposes them, where did they come from? If you say science somehow validates them, that would be question-begging. Even if you can't figure that out, the fact that science says they exists give us a clear case for their independent existence.
Logic, mathematics and philosophy are all models that science uses; models that we have created and are hence conceptual. Science doesn't say anything about the "existence" of such models. What science does is use them because they continue to produce effective results. So in that sense, science does validate them. It isn't question begging, but rather a practical necessity.
You are wrong, we did not create them (at least not logic and mathematics) and they are not models. They are abstract objects. You are right science does not say anything about them because it cannot--it simply presupposes them. It does bring up a interesting question, where did they come from?
