What is logic?

[Angrboda]

First, the point of the conversation was not that G-LOC or ketamine duplicate the features of an NDE, but that NDEs that don't involve death are the same experience as NDEs that do involve death and resuscitation.  Your insistence that an NDE must involve death is based upon nothing but your metaphysical theories about NDEs generally, and represents a usage of the term that runs counter to standard usage of the term NDE throughout the near death research community.  But we've encountered this before.  You think the answer to a technical difficulty is just to redefine the words.  That's nothing but anti-social and obnoxious.  Regardless, as usual when you're losing a point in a discussion, the first thing you do is change the subject.  Well I guess if you want to change the subject because you're losing, then we'll change the subject.

Second, we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience.  In the case of the ketamine user whose partner died in a fire, had an NDE, and then later turned to ketamine, this person found the recreation of the near death experience by the drug ketamine to be very "therapeutic" -- therapy being the changing of life attitudes and behaviors.  In his words, "I was put onto various things like Prozac, but I was finding that my own "extra treatment" (the ketamine) was doing me a lot more good because "K" is very cathartic. I was doing it because it made me feel better, except the first time when it was quite a shock. It made me feel a lot less unhappy knowing that she was still there in one way or another. It would have taken a lot longer for me to recover if I hadn't taken "K" because it gets rid of a lot of hurt instantly ... It's very reassuring in a way."  So the claim that ketamine induced experiences can't be cathartic just like the naturalistic event of an NDE is false.

Third, what is your point in asking this question?  If it is that because the two experiences have different after-effects that they thus have nothing in common internally, then that's just fucking stupid.  People reason about events in their life based upon the explanation they attach to the event.  Naturally, an event tied to the explanation "drug induced high" is going to be reasoned about differently than one to which you attach the explanation "experience of the afterlife."  That's just common sense.  That the two events have different psychological after-effects has as much to do with the difference in explanation they attach to the experience as it does any actual differences in the experiences.  Moreover, the point is not that a drug experience is exactly like an NDE, but rather that certain features of NDEs which are puzzling, such as their clarity and vividness, have naturalistic explanations.  If a chemical in the brain can cause NDE like symptoms, then it's reasonable to infer that the symptoms experienced during an NDE might have a basis in brain chemistry.  That the two have different after-effects and therefore are internally different is just dense.

That you think the difference between people's reaction to ketamine and their reaction to an NDE should be a "wake up call" to me is laughable.  It just shows the poverty of your reasoning about such experiences.  Paul of Tarsus had a vision on the road to Damascus and converted to Christianity.  It would be ludicrous to expect that everyone who has a drug trip on the road to Damascus is going to come to Christ, but that seems to be what you're implying.  The fact that Paul had his conversion, and the hippie did not, does not defuse the point that their respective experiences were likely natural events occurring in the brain.  And so it is with ketamine and NDEs; the commonality in the symptoms points toward something in common physically, that the two are a result of brain chemistry.  To draw any other conclusion about the "Pauline" conversions of near death experiencers is simply to be confused about the differences in context and the resultant psychology that this entails.  To imply that it shows a fundamental difference in the quality of the experiences is pure bollocks.  That simply does not follow.

Fool.  

You can't have an NDE that doesn't involve death.
And here I mean an NDE that follow a mystical experience and an experience in which God teach you
the correct path to follow.
You are too thick and obtuse to understand how these things works Yog.
By using a chemical tool you may well experience something mystical but it is all limited to the strength of the drug that you use and to the strength of your brain that is forced to put up with this unnatural way.

Drugs, ketamine G-LOC force the pineal gland to release chemicals which in turn affect the consciousness
to open up and experience something mystical.

And here we have the difference.
Forcing the consciousness to open up in an unnatural way is like a mental masturbation while in an NDE
you experience the real thing in a natural way.
Because the natural way involve a consciousness that is 100% alert you remember such an experience
all your life.
The mental masturbation on the other hand is forgotten in no time and you learn absolutely nothing.

Lots of assertions. Not a drop of evidence. Blow it out your ass. You don't know shit about how NDEs affect the brain, how drugs influence the pineal gland, or much of anything. You're just dribbling out your mouth a bunch of inanities without so much as a shred of evidence. You've already been given an example of where the "mental masturbation" was not forgotten and resulted in changes that will last a lifetime, but don't let actual evidence stop you from making your bullshit assertions. Your thinking on this is the only mental masturbation. You've just been shown the exact opposite and yet you continue asserting the same thing. You're just an ideological shill for your religious dogma about NDEs. You don't think at all. You just assert, regardless of what the evidence shows.

But let me see your point......you say.............we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience...........

Sure Yog.
When you pop up down under go to visit Nimbin and see how the drugs have changed people lives.
30-40 years ago this place was like the San Francisco of America where young people wanted to experiment with light drugs.
Now these people are like zombies on heavy drugs.
The mystical way is all gone.
They ruin their bodies, their brains and force the consciousness in the total darkness.

Here a comment......... Fuck, last time I went to Nimbin I couldn't even get out of my car for junkies coming up to me asking if I want some weed.

I went to the pub once and when I came back to my car there was some old junkie leaning on my car shooting up in broad daylight.

http://www.skateboard.com.au/article/15-...010-nimbi/

What's your point here? That illicit drug use is dangerous. Of course it is. What that has to do with whether or not ketamine can have transformative effects in the individual user, or that it can produce clear, vivid, and sharp experiences, who the fuck knows? It's just you, gone off on another tangent that has nothing to do with the original point. Congratulations on not making any point, Mr. Detective. It's just more of your sloppy thinking.