RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 10, 2017 at 1:51 pm
(This post was last modified: May 10, 2017 at 1:54 pm by Aroura.)
(May 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(May 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design. That's what a puppet does.
I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.
As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.
If he already knows what you will chose, then are you free at the point in time when you come to that choice? Could you actually even chose something else?
The answer to both are no. If he can see your choice, and that choice is fixed and not a variable, then it is not a choice, it is a predetermined action that you cannot change, or chose something different when the time comes. That is the very definition of predetermined.
If he could see all our possible choices, but not know which we chose until WE chose it, then we could have free will, in the god scenario. But it sort of kills all his Omni's, so you reject this idea, too.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it, too. Pick one. Either God has a master plan and he already knows all final outcomes (not all possible outcomes), or you have free-will. Not both.
I know this is a bit tricky to understand. When confronted with the idea of determinism, it literally took me months (and possibly years) of reading, arguing, watching video explanations, and more arguing to really, REALLY understand it. I rejected it for a long time before starting to understand and absorb it.
It is probably one of the very hardest "easy" concepts anyone ever comes across, because it is butting up against one of your core beliefs, so you simple try to make it all fit. I'm just pointing out that there are bits poking out, you've put a round peg into that square hole, and it doesn't really fit. Look at it careful.
Explain to yourself first, and then anyone here, how anything is free if it cannot be any other way because the outcome is already known by God.
(Although I do not think god exists, I think it may help people understand the world better if they become able to note the logical inconsistencies within their own beliefs, one of the very hardest things to do for anyone!)
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead