(May 11, 2017 at 2:50 am)Luckie Wrote:Valyza1 Wrote:I have no idea. I have no idea what happens to anyone's Free Will once they die. I don't see what Free Will has to do with someone being religious or not, much less if they ever had a chance to be religious.
Are you just F#*/ING with me? Please let me know now, as I don't really want to waste my breath on someone who isn't serious.
Assuming you can't understand what I'm talking about, or what I'm saying.. I'll break it down for you.
God creates man.
God creates heaven, and hell.
Man must choose Christ and go to heaven, or be sent to hell.
For those unable to get the choice in life , like the Eskimo analogy, then they go to heaven by fiat.
They didn't choose Jesus or to reject him, they just get a free ticket to heaven.
For those humans (like babies) who die before they can make such an eternal choice--they too get a free ticket to heaven.
Neither scenarios offered up any situational free will. They just end up in heaven.
Suppose that that happened to you. Suppose that before you were able to reach year 1, you died.
When you got to heaven, you find out that you're there but your mom? Well she just couldn't handle your loss, she committed suicide and went to hell. God says dont worry about it, happens all the time, OH WELL.
Would you not have any pity in your heart whatsoever for your mum, who fed you from her breast, and loved you so much she couldn't live without you? Would you not beg god to change his mind about tormenting her soul for an eternity? When he says no.. do you really think you'd be okay with that answer?
When you found out hell was eternal torment of the higest order, and that God created it knowing people like your mom would end up there.. wouldn't you be a little miffed about the whole thing when you find out this whole situation was set up by God so he could have a minority of all his creation choose him , but you didn't even get that choice so [quote what's the point?
My point is that free will being gods reasoning for the current state of creation, is not a valid argument.
Quote:I didn't respond to your anecdote about going to heaven because I didn't and still don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.
Do you understand now? Or, as I suspect, are you just playing mental gymnastics in order to avoid thinking too much about the invalidity of Free Will as a causation for the horrific. Conditions innocent humans are subjected to on this earth and how utterly ubsurd it is to believe that it's allowed to occur by an omnipotent, omniscient being who simply wants to give you free will to choose to be his buddy?
I'm not playing mental gymnastics to avoid anything, I'm just trying to minimize the necessity of having to invoke unnecessary burdens of proof, by keeping the conversation to talking about Free Will vs Determinism. It makes for a more clear, streamlined discussion. I have thoughts on your objections, but the reason they're off topic is because they presume a whole bunch of ideas (Heaven, Hell, Christian doctrine) that aren't necessary to believe in order to believe in Free Will, which is what we're talking about.
Free Will isn't defined as the ability to choose God, it's defined as the ability to choose anything at all that one wills. The consequences of choosing God/Jesus or of not choosing such are a separate conversation. I'm happy to have that conversation, though I am shakier about my stances on it, but it is a separate conversation. All I'm trying to do here is show that Free Will and Determinism aren't necessarily incompatible, although I'm starting to discover that the definition of Free Will I'm using isn't exactly the definition other people in the thread are going by.
