RE: Why is it okay when God kills people?
May 13, 2017 at 9:19 am
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2017 at 10:15 am by SteveII.)
(May 13, 2017 at 1:33 am)Grandizer Wrote:(May 12, 2017 at 8:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: I think its an appropriate question (otherwise I would not have responded). However the whole premise is that God owes us something.
Or that God respects our right to life simply because it's an honorable thing for a divine being who supposedly created us to do.
Quote:The only thing that is owed us is death apart from the grace of God.
Says SteveII and not God. [1]
Quote:Why do we deserve death? Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes).
Bullshit on "holy" being an essential attribute of God. And your theological notion of "just" is so bronze-age and not in tune with our modern humane intuitions of what is just, that to attach such a notion to God should be seen as an insult to one's intelligence. Surely, God is beyond such bronze-age conception of "just". [2]
Quote:His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy. Nothing created could satisfy the justice attribute of an eternal God and bridge the gap to holy so God humbled himself in the person of Jesus and made a sacrifice of eternal substance with eternal significance for all time (past, present and future).
Says SteveII (and his preachers) and not God. [1]
Quote:So, when God kills someone, we see that he certainly has the right to, but that can't be all there is to it because why doesn't he just kill anyone at any time and why the whole plan of redemption in the NT? It is reasonable to infer then that there was another reason than just plain judgement -- mainly that it was for greater good or long-term consequences only an omniscient mind could calculate (as an example, motivation, or some other effect that might have taken years or centuries to realize--like the conditions that led to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.
Or an even better explanation, and one that is so conclusively clear you'd have to have a Christian agenda to reject it, is that Christian theism is man-made (resulting in errors and contradictions and ambiguities typical of humans), and hence we have all this confusion and nonsensical conceptions of "just" and "right" resulting from such confusion. [3]
1. From a series of verses call "The Roman's Road":
- Romans 3:23 NKJV – for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
- Romans 3:10 NKJV – As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;
- Romans 5:12 NKJV – Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–
- Romans 6:23 NKJV – For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 5:8 NKJV – But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
- Romans 10:9-10 NKJV – that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
- Romans 10:13 NKJV – For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
- Romans 10:17 NKJV – So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
3. None of that is an argument. That is a typical dodge that boils down to: "I started arguing about how your God does not make sense and when you show me the reasons behind a particular belief, I will just fall back on (circle one) man-made; bronze-age; full of contradictions; Christians don't all agree; got science wrong; conspiracy" ...well done.
(May 12, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Cecelia Wrote:(May 12, 2017 at 11:06 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your reasoning is circular. God does not have the right to judge people because he judges people?
Your reasoning is what's circular. "God is good because he is god."
Based on God's own actions in his own book of propaganda show him to be an unjust and immoral god.
No, God's nature is the standard of what is good since God is defined as "the greatest conceivable being".
Two analogies:
1. Just as a high-def recording is judged by how closely it approximates the actual event, good can be measured as how closely it approximates the character of God.
2. Two artist are asked to paint NYC. The only way to know which one is better is to compare it to the real NYC. So, moral choices are measured in how close they approximate the nature of God.
I am not saying that your objections to all the death is unfounded. Because we have a built-in moral compass (in the image of God) we find these situations objectionable. However, I am pointing out that this objection does not in any way undermine our idea of God or indicates an inconsistency or fault in logic.