(May 12, 2017 at 2:31 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It's okay when God kills people because he's good by definition.

He could molest a baby duckling with an apricot in the most sadistic way imaginable and call it good.

I'm strangely aroused . . . .

(May 12, 2017 at 7:26 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 3:13 pm)SteveII Wrote: More precisely, we are talking about whether it is right for God to kill people. Since his reason for killing people is 'judgement' then I think my questions are very on point. Now, do you want to answer my questions or not (that's called 'having a discussion')?

As you just said, the OP is about whether it is right or not for God to kill people. But more precisely, it is trying to appeal to your modern humane intuition to ponder this. Would a good God (if such existed) really kill people, judgement or not? Step aside from theology for a while, and see if the OP does make a fair point.

I think its an appropriate question (otherwise I would not have responded). However the whole premise is that God owes us something. The only thing that is owed us is death apart from the grace of God. Why do we deserve death? Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes). His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy. Nothing created could satisfy the justice attribute of an eternal God and bridge the gap to holy so God humbled himself in the person of Jesus and made a sacrifice of eternal substance with eternal significance for all time (past, present and future).

So, when God kills someone, we see that he certainly has the right to, but that can't be all there is to it because why doesn't he just kill anyone at any time and why the whole plan of redemption in the NT? It is reasonable to infer then that there was another reason than just plain judgement -- mainly that it was for greater good or long-term consequences only an omniscient mind could calculate (as an example, motivation, or some other effect that might have taken years or centuries to realize--like the conditions that led to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Are you okay with the concept of God judging people after they die? 

If you are, then what is the difference if he judges them before they die? 

If you are not, then it seems that killing people is really not your objection--rather that somehow it is not reasonable that God should be able to judge us.

No, it's not reasonable that he judge people after they die--because going by his actions in the bible this god is neither just nor moral.  He is only powerful--and might (despite what some may argue) does not make right.  It is not reasonable for an unjust and immoral god to judge people.

It's amazing how persuasive some of those telephone/internet scammers can be regarding their various scammy scams.

Odd, ain't it, God dispatches a Son without that knack for convincing folks? In fact, Jesus was so poor at it, He inspired a faith beset by tens of thousands of schisms ever since.

(May 12, 2017 at 10:33 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Are you okay with the concept of God judging people after they die? 

If you are, then what is the difference if he judges them before they die? 

If you are not, then it seems that killing people is really not your objection--rather that somehow it is not reasonable that God should be able to judge us.

No, it's not reasonable that he judge people after they die--because going by his actions in the bible this god is neither just nor moral.  He is only powerful--and might (despite what some may argue) does not make right.  It is not reasonable for an unjust and immoral god to judge people.

Your reasoning is circular. God does not have the right to judge people because he judges people?

Because he is God. Are you doubting, infidel!?

(May 12, 2017 at 11:06 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your reasoning is circular. God does not have the right to judge people because he judges people?

Your reasoning is what's circular.  "God is good because he is god."

Based on God's own actions in his own book of propaganda show him to be an unjust and immoral god.

Why can't god come up with a better plan for his chosen people to get their holy land that doesn't involve massive bloodshed? He's all powerful and all knowing and supposedly the most intelligent being in the universe. So he should be Superman crossed with Batman. There are so many ways he could have prevented the wholesale slaughter of not only adults, but often children and infants. He could have prevented the Canaanites from settling there. But instead of a superhero he's more like some sort of blood hungry war criminal.

Christians might say they were pagans but so what? Most of the people in the world today believe in a different god, and sane people don't think they should die for it. Particularly the children and infants.

(May 12, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 11:06 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your reasoning is circular. God does not have the right to judge people because he judges people?

Your reasoning is what's circular.  "God is good because he is god."

Based on God's own actions in his own book of propaganda show him to be an unjust and immoral god.

Or god has the right to judge people because he can judge people

(May 12, 2017 at 8:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: I think its an appropriate question (otherwise I would not have responded). However the whole premise is that God owes us something.

Or that God respects our right to life simply because it's an honorable thing for a divine being who supposedly created us to do.

Quote:The only thing that is owed us is death apart from the grace of God.

Says SteveII and not God.

Quote:Why do we deserve death? Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes).

Bullshit on "holy" being an essential attribute of God. And your theological notion of "just" is so bronze-age and not in tune with our modern humane intuitions of what is just, that to attach such a notion to God should be seen as an insult to one's intelligence. Surely, God is beyond such bronze-age conception of "just".

Quote:His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy. Nothing created could satisfy the justice attribute of an eternal God and bridge the gap to holy so God humbled himself in the person of Jesus and made a sacrifice of eternal substance with eternal significance for all time (past, present and future).

Says SteveII (and his preachers) and not God.

Quote:So, when God kills someone, we see that he certainly has the right to, but that can't be all there is to it because why doesn't he just kill anyone at any time and why the whole plan of redemption in the NT? It is reasonable to infer then that there was another reason than just plain judgement -- mainly that it was for greater good or long-term consequences only an omniscient mind could calculate (as an example, motivation, or some other effect that might have taken years or centuries to realize--like the conditions that led to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

Or an even better explanation, and one that is so conclusively clear you'd have to have a Christian agenda to reject it, is that Christian theism is man-made (resulting in errors and contradictions and ambiguities typical of humans), and hence we have all this confusion and nonsensical conceptions of "just" and "right" resulting from such confusion.