(July 9, 2017 at 3:36 pm)Astonished Wrote:(July 9, 2017 at 3:33 pm)mordant Wrote: Science cannot test anything that's not part of the natural world (= supernatural). If something's supernatural it's irrelevant to discussion, knowledge claims or decision making of any sort.
What science CAN test is the claimed results of certain activities prescribed by supposedly supernaturally originated beliefs or holy books. If "prayer changes things", as the saying goes, then those "changes" should be measurable. Alas, they are not.
Except when they prove how much extra stress religious belief puts on the patients when they know they're being prayed for. So much for it not making them welcome death and a blissful afterlife. Almost like they don't actually really believe that even though they say they do...
I'm talking about the desired results not being demonstrated. Of course there are effects -- it sets unrealistic expectations, promotes passivity, and as you point out, puts not-so-subtle pressure on the person being prayed FOR because if prayer doesn't work then it is never god's fault, it is YOUR fault somehow. You have a secret sin, or insufficient faith, or quit praying too soon, or with impure motives -- or something of that nature. In the circles I used to move in, we didn't usually come right out and say it, but the feeling was that "real" Christians just don't have huge personal problems or tragedies.
It's a terrible, miserable, rotten, no-good system of thought. Enslaves people and torments them to the extent they take it seriously.
