Regarding The Flap Over Confederate Statues

[bennyboy]

You'd said you were looking, so I said "let's see what you find." I haven't myself based my arguments on public opinion; I have only said that that might be a third way to address this issue, in addition to the two you've proposed. Now, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but they can actually take the measure of public opinion there and elsewhere by voting. I know, shocking, right?

Not at all. I suggested that given the sensitivity of this issue, the people of Charlottesville SHOULD vote on it.

I'd say that understanding the society where this unrest is happening goes beyond understanding statues and free speech. It also involves history -- a requirement I notice you didn't mention in your listing of qualifications -- and understanding the views of those who are aggrieved. You seem pretty deficient in the latter and of uncertain qualification in the former. I don't know how long you've lived in America -- or where -- nor do I know your understanding of black culture in America. Everything I've read from you in this thread indicates you haven't learnt a damned thing about the latter, your black friends notwithstanding.

So. . . you feel I'm not a true enough Scotsman after all. Whatever.

Lookee here, the logician is practicing tu quoque. Maybe you can educate us here: which campaigns are happening towards those ends? Maybe you should start a thread about those movements? I'll happily offer my opinion. Until then, this looks an awful lot like "I don't mind statues of people which harmed my folk, therefore you should shut the fuck up about statues you don't like."

I would NEVER tell anyone to "shut the fuck up" about this so long as they are arguing a sincere opinion.

Yeah, my understanding is that the law will probably need to be amended.

I've already answered your simple black-or-white nonsense, though.

All you really had to say was "appeal to hypocrisy." But unless you are disagreeing that there's a double standard, there are the following options:
1) keep all statues on general principle-- my preferred choice because it's completely unambiguous and requires no special pleading
2) remove all statues on general principle-- a terrible choice, because it removes chance for observation and discussion about important issues
3) remove some statues on specific principles-- an understandable choice, but potentially divisive as can easily be seen right now

In the third case, measures should be taken to assure that the citizens of the city to whom the park was bequeathed actually approve of the special principle involved: in this case, that the presence of a Confederate monument on public lands in a US city is sufficiently inflammatory and hurtful that it should be removed, or placed in a museum which can establish a better historical "context."

It's my perception that many in the Southern states admire Lee and consider him worth memorializing. If so, then there's an additional question: "Are some values so important to the US that they must be adhered to despite popular opinion?" In other words, should the statue be removed EVEN IF the numerical majority of Charlottesville citizens don't want it to be?

And that, to be sure, is where the backlash lies-- that Southerners view Washington-of-the-North as overstepping its bounds in determining on their behalf what views should / shouldn't be considered acceptable to the US as a whole.

I'm pretty clear, now-- are you?  Or are you going to tell me that I'm ugly and my mother dresses me funny, so my opinion is irrelevant?

Why is it so important to you that your opinion be regarded highly? Is there a better way to achieve that than tossing about the names of fallacies even as you practice them?

There you go. . . appeal to hypocrisy. Look, there are plenty of valid arguments in support of removing the General Lee statue. But you've made a lot of points which are invalid, because they are obvious logical fallacies. If those arguments are directed at me and I notice them, I'll call them out 100% of the time, and you are free to do the same. It is only by getting past rhetorical bullshit and using logic that we can try to understand what this case is really about, and formulate decent ideas about what should be done.