Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?

[reverendjeremiah]

The workforce isn't being exploited, despite your assertions. Exploitation is defined as "The act of using something in an unjust or cruel manner" giving a person a wage they agree to work for under conditions they were informed of is not exploitation, it's the businesses who will break contracts, force labor and lie about the conditions that can be said to be exploitative - all such actions involve the use of force, fraud or coercion and thus the government has a legitimate moral authority to intervene.

You see Void, I KNOW you are intelligent. So when you say something like "The workforce isn't being exploited, despite your assertions" it really makes me wonder what you are trying to get at. Do you HONESTLY expect me to believe that line? Many employers drop new conditions into their employees laps and hold their livelyhood hostage in order to force them to accept poorer and poorer conditions, slack safety gear, and more work chores for less hours and pay. These all fly below the radar on "breaking contracts" and "lieing". It is also OBVIOUS that many contracts in the non-union sector are all rules of what the employee must and cant do. What employer makes an employee sign a contract stating "the employer cannot lie to the employee"? Let the record also show that labor history has fought for the government (sometimes sacrificing their lives in the process) to get the government to consider these issues legitimate.

What are you trying to get at void? I KNOW you are smart enough to know this basic information... yet why do you ignore it and write about the opposite?

And the benefits of unions isn't anywhere near the fantasy story you portray, we scrapped compulsory union membership in the 70s and wages have been rising faster... Clearly not a case of your bald-faced assertion that "All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer."

A 2005 study found that the Australian federal minimum wage was 58% of the median wage, compared to 45% in the UK and 34% in the U.S.[7] The typical minimum wage worker is in a middle-income household.[7]
In Australia, on 14 December 2005, the Australian Fair Pay Commission was established under the Workplace Relations Amendment (WorkChoices) Act 2005. It is the responsibility of the commission to adjust the standard federal minimum wage,[8] replacing the role of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission that took submissions from a variety of sources to determine appropriate minimum wages. The Australian Fair Pay Commission was replaced by Fair Work Australia in 2010.[9]
From 1 October 2007, the Australia standard Federal Minimum Wage is $13.74 per hour or $522.12 per week.[10]
From 1 October 2008, the Australia standard Federal Minimum Wage is $14.31 per hour or $543.78 per week.[11]
In 2009, the Federal Minimum Wage was not changed.[12]
In 2010, the Federal Minimum Wage was raised to $15 per hour or $569.90 per week[13]

You were saying? Minimum wage laws have ALWAYS been a staple of trade unions / guilds. Your wage is upward moving because of the fight that tradesmen have made to ensure that people have a good standard of living. DAMN! Your minimum wage is $8 less than what I make an hour (minus benefits). Your minimum wage can actually be lived on, where as ours is a joke. AND LOOK...the minimum wage in your country keeps going up and up. Making unions compulsory or not is not the issue. You will, regardless, always have union minded people and non union minded people regardless of membership or not. YES, some people join a union and hate unions at the same time.

You keep claiming I am stupid when it comes to economy..but it sure looks to me that wages in Australia have been upward mobile in direct comparison to minimum wage. Care to comment on that?

If people think they will benefit from union membership then I would encourage them to do so, I support their freedom of association completely and will stand up for them if any politician or employer thinks they have the right to fire people for joining a union, but I will likewise stand up for people who don't want to join a union but are forced to, or an employer who is told that they cannot freely negotiate with another consenting adult who has not agreed to the conditions of a third party.

I doubt you would stand up for them if employers threatened their jobs. I have been a union member for 15+ years now, and one thing I know, is that most people talk out of their ass when it comes to things like that. You dont really mean that... ESPECIALLY if your job is on the line. If me and you were on the same job, and I openly spoke of unionism, and our boss threatened my job, you want me to honestly think that you will risk your job to defend me even if you werent interested in joining that union?

BULLSHIT!

I talk the talk and walk the walk. I have stood up for others rights and have paid the consequences for it with my job. Your very paragraph indicates that you will easily flip flop. The fact that you glorified greed in later posts speak VOLUMES of what you would really do in that situation. You would think of yourself and not stand by me. I would bet my dues receipt on it.

Let me explain this a bit more in detail. I am a journeyman. That means "have tools, will travel" in laymans terms. I do industrial Electrical work, and it is extremely dangerous. I travel from job to job, and have slept in my truck on many a night because I had to send money back home to support my family. One day I am working in Maryland, the next day I am in Pennsylvania. Brotherhood is important in this situation.I have given union brothers hundred dollar bills, people I just met, to ensure they had a place to stay at night and food in their stomach. I have opened my doors and let union brothers stay, sometimes 5 at a time sleeping on the floor to help them get back on their feet. When an employer treats someone wrong, then I am next, and so are you! I step up and protest it immediately, job be damned. Someone with your mentality in this situation is counter productive. Your view point, although on the surface seems fair and all-inclusive, ultimately supports the abusive employers at the expense of the wage worker and their families.

There is no need for a union there, any wrongdoing falls under the jurisdiction of the government and compensation can be sought in a tribunal.

..and yet again you vote your approval of greed, and then hypocritically suggest that unions are not needed in such a situation. You just said a few paragraphs ago that; "If people think they will benefit from union membership then I would encourage them to do so". Not to mention that govt. labor laws protecting wage workers have been priority number one of trade unions and guilds throughout history. Honestly Void...why dont you just post "Im a hypocritical asshole who only cares about myself" and save us the time of sifting through this garbage you call a post.

Yep, you're a complete authoritarian!

Because he thinks all shops should be unionized?..not to mention you said you would support his freedom to do so not just a few paragraphs ago..then you claim he is authoritarian because of it. Are you not proof reading your posts? Or are you to stoned to review your typings? I guess he is also an authoritarian if he stands for something other than your economical and political views as well? If we dont conform to your beliefs, then we are authoritarians?

Nobody has ANY moral authority to force people to associate with any organisation, nor to tell them that they may not associate.

..versus...

There is no need for a union there..

Need I say more? Your own words expose your hypocrisy.