Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?

[theVOID]

You see Void, I KNOW you are intelligent. So when you say something like "The workforce isn't being exploited, despite your assertions" it really makes me wonder what you are trying to get at. Do you HONESTLY expect me to believe that line? Many employers drop new conditions into their employees laps and hold their livelyhood hostage in order to force them to accept poorer and poorer conditions, slack safety gear, and more work chores for less hours and pay. These all fly below the radar on "breaking contracts" and "lieing". It is also OBVIOUS that many contracts in the non-union sector are all rules of what the employee must and cant do. What employer makes an employee sign a contract stating "the employer cannot lie to the employee"? Let the record also show that labor history has fought for the government (sometimes sacrificing their lives in the process) to get the government to consider these issues legitimate.

I was responding to his absolute statement to the contrary, If he had said "a lot of the workforce are being exploited" I wouldn't have disagreed but his assertion was of exploitation full stop, no exceptions. I gave the definition of what I consider exploitation and then gave the things that the government has a real authority to intervene on, and they are more or less the examples you gave, Breaking contracts, neglecting their responsibilities to the employees health and safety and payment of less than agreed upon either through more unpaid hours or less hours than agreed upon - I think I've stated EXTREMELY CLEARLY what I do and do not believe the government has any moral authority to do and NONE of your examples show any acknowledgement of that.

The employer does not have to agree to not lie, they can not lie without breaking the law, it is a case of employment fraud, the Government has legitimate authority to deal with this.

Like I've said what, one hundred times already? I oppose ANY use of force, fraud, coercion or negligence. If you can find an example of it happening whether in business or in public it's the Government's job to stop it.I don't know what more I could possibly say if you don't get it by now, but time and time and time again I have things thrown at me, expected to defend, that if you take two fucking seconds to think about usually contain the use of one of those four things.

You were saying? Minimum wage laws have ALWAYS been a staple of trade unions / guilds.

What the hell has this got to do with income as it relates to the abolishment of compulsory unions? Nothing, that's what. I never said a thing about their minimum wages, I never said anything about Australia, I never said about a minimum wage law, All I said was that real wages (the amount of goods and services you can get in exchange for your productivity) here (in New Zealand) have risen SINCE the end of compulsory union membership - This was a REFUTATION of Bozo's assertion that "All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer."

Your wage is upward moving because of the fight that tradesmen have made to ensure that people have a good standard of living.

Clearly not just the tea party who can't find New Zealand on a map now is it Rev?

DAMN! Your minimum wage is $8 less than what I make an hour (minus benefits).

Mine? No, Australia's, ours is slightly less, $12.75NZD or about $11USD at current rates, Australia's dollar buys about $1.10USD so $18 an hour US. Australia's dollar is doing phenomenally well, we unfortunately got crushed harder by your asset bubble being a country that has quite a lot of high liquidity property investment.

Your minimum wage can actually be lived on, where as ours is a joke.

You also have much cheaper prices, while our wage is 32% higher than yours in terms of dollars your price index is much much lower, here it's at 4.6 on average this year and in the US I believe around 1.3, It's not a straight forward comparison but your prices are a fair bit lower.

AND LOOK...the minimum wage in your country keeps going up and up. Making unions compulsory or not is not the issue.

It is an issue for freedom of association, but that's another issue, all I was intending is to show a counterexample to Bozo's assertion that it hadn't happened anywhere at all ever.

You will, regardless, always have union minded people and non union minded people regardless of membership or not. YES, some people join a union and hate unions at the same time.

I know, and as I said above I am for freedom of association, if someone wants to join a union they have a right to do so, if you're going to earn more and have better conditions there is no reason not to.

You keep claiming I am stupid when it comes to economy..

If you call disagreement and considering someone stupid the same thing then it appears you consider me just as stupid on the economy.

but it sure looks to me that wages in Australia have been upward mobile in direct comparison to minimum wage. Care to comment on that?

Seeing as I'm not an Australian I'd have to have a look now wouldn't I? If I found that (i) the unemployment levels have remained stable and (ii) the price of goods has risen less than the increase in wages (the real wage has risen) then I wouldn't be perfectly happy accepting that a minimum wage is one factor in the rising wages, but how much of a role it plays relative to their economy being in relatively excellent form compared to the rest of the world at large remains to be seen. For instance only 4% of their population is on a minimum wage, so while it may aid the bottom 4% of employed people the consistent raising of wages across the board strongly suggests a multitude of factors, it strongly suggests to me that other aspects of the Australian economy are more substantial.

Personally, I feel a better way to assist low income workers would be a tax-floor, don't charge anyone income taxes on the first $10k-20k and then raise that figure as much as possible relative to the increase in revenues.

I doubt you would stand up for them if employers threatened their jobs.

Yes, I would. All people are allowed representation on all contracts, just as you can't tell someone getting a loan they can't see their lawyer or other advice prior you cannot tell someone with an employment contract that they cannot be represented or seek advice. If an employer tried to do so they would be breaking the law and it should be taken seriously.

I have been a union member for 15+ years now, and one thing I know, is that most people talk out of their ass when it comes to things like that. You dont really mean that... ESPECIALLY if your job is on the line.

Yes I do. If someone was threatening my job if I didn't take a pay cut I would be considering the benefits from a Union as rather clear, well worth the dues. If someone told me I could not seek representation or advice I would be reporting them to the authorities because as I expressed above I believe it should be entirely illegal to coerce people with threats of job loss should they do something that they have a right to do. If a Union's members were being told to leave they too would report the employer to the government if it was illegal would you not?

If me and you were on the same job, and I openly spoke of unionism, and our boss threatened my job, you want me to honestly think that you will risk your job to defend me even if you werent interested in joining that union?

Yeah, I would, though if it was illegal I wouldn't have to! LIKE I SAID, The employer has no right to coerce you or threaten you and no right to chose who you do and do not associate with, it should be ABSOLUTELY punishable by law.

I talk the talk and walk the walk. I have stood up for others rights and have paid the consequences for it with my job. Your very paragraph indicates that you will easily flip flop. The fact that you glorified greed in later posts speak VOLUMES of what you would really do in that situation. You would think of yourself and not stand by me. I would bet my dues receipt on it.

Who are you to judge my character Rev? What makes you so special that you can speak to my values? Fuck you.

Let me explain this a bit more in detail. I am a journeyman. That means "have tools, will travel" in laymans terms. I do industrial Electrical work, and it is extremely dangerous. I travel from job to job, and have slept in my truck on many a night because I had to send money back home to support my family. One day I am working in Maryland, the next day I am in Pennsylvania. Brotherhood is important in this situation.I have given union brothers hundred dollar bills, people I just met, to ensure they had a place to stay at night and food in their stomach. I have opened my doors and let union brothers stay, sometimes 5 at a time sleeping on the floor to help them get back on their feet. When an employer treats someone wrong, then I am next, and so are you! I step up and protest it immediately, job be damned. Someone with your mentality in this situation is counter productive. Your view point, although on the surface seems fair and all-inclusive, ultimately supports the abusive employers at the expense of the wage worker and their families.

Good on you for helping people, as an individual, you're NOT unique in that regard.

..and yet again you vote your approval of greed, and then hypocritically suggest that unions are not needed in such a situation.

It should be against the LAW. You do not need a UNION to deal with a legal matter. And what part of that makes me greedy or hypocritical?

You just said a few paragraphs ago that; "If people think they will benefit from union membership then I would encourage them to do so". Not to mention that govt. labor laws protecting wage workers have been priority number one of trade unions and guilds throughout history. Honestly Void...why dont you just post "Im a hypocritical asshole who only cares about myself" and save us the time of sifting through this garbage you call a post.

And now you're on to personal attacks? What a DOUCHEBAG. Yeah I only care about myself, that MUST be why I spent WEEKS helping people during the rubble from the Earthquake, right? Shovelling the liquefaction on the road for hours on end, going in to a house to pack a bag for a neighbour who was in too much panic who felt unsafe, not to mention I give to several charities when I have the means, I give what I can when someone is collecting on the streets. Surely sounds like someone who doesn't care, right?

Because he thinks all shops should be unionized?..not to mention you said you would support his freedom to do so not just a few paragraphs ago..then you claim he is authoritarian because of it. Are you not proof reading your posts? Or are you to stoned to review your typings? I guess he is also an authoritarian if he stands for something other than your economical and political views as well? If we dont conform to your beliefs, then we are authoritarians?

Wow... He said "CLOSED SHOPS", as in "If you don't join the union you can't work".

And you accuse me of not reading? Hilarious! Do you think you can put your foot in your own mouth any further? Telling someone what organisations they MUST or MUST NOT join is blatantly Authoritarian. Do you dispute this?

Nobody has ANY moral authority to force people to associate with any organisation, nor to tell them that they may not associate.

..versus...

There is no need for a union there..

Need I say more? Your own words expose your hypocrisy.

No Need =/= Not permitted.

You're the one here who needs to read more carefully, sunshine.