(September 25, 2017 at 6:03 pm)beepete Wrote: Hi Steveall
It seems like a forum where people are keen to win arguments rather than have an open discussion, but that is true of most forums. It was a culmination of points made by both Hitchens and Harris that started me thinking and probably the biggest stumbling block for me is the concept of the biblical hell. I know most if not all the Christian apologetics for the fairness of hell and as a former evangelist openly used them in defense of the gospel. But after stepping back and attempting to be objective and as honest as I am able I can't marry the concept of a loving a God and eternal torture.
My grandmother recently died, and though she was probably one of the most moral, upright and loving people I have ever known, she never came to accept the gospel. So according to the scriptures, she will spend eternity being perpetually tortured. If she were alive today and anyone attempted to harm her I would spring to her defense with my very life. Anyone that incarcerated and tortured her for whatever perceived wrongs she may have committed would be worthy of only contempt and death (especially if I managed to get my hands on them).So, would it be possible for me to enjoy the biblical heaven, knowing that my grandmother and a multitude of other people were being tortured day and night without reprieve for all eternity? The answer is no. I may well be wrong and end up in hell for all eternity (and according to the Bible it will be worse for me as I have known the truth and walked away). But heaven would be just as much of a hell for me, knowing that people I love are suffering while I enjoy the benefits of redemption. Does this prove that the Bible is wrong and that God does not exist? No, it proves nothing, but it is where I am at and I will face the consequences.
The thing about hell I find most interesting is that it paints the Christian god as being incredibly petty and vindictive. Now, it differs by which of the Baskin-Robbins flavors of Christianity you believe in, but generally speaking, good works won't save a person if the reject the divinity of Christ.
That never made much sense to me. I mean, what is rejection, really? It's just an emotional slight, right? We tell our youth that, hey, not everyone is going to like you, but that's okay. Just be the best person you can be, and someone will come along who will like you. People get rejected for things all the time. Promotions, job offers, dates, marriage, trips out, insurance coverage, etc. But, generally, we don't torture those who reject us. Yet, here's this supposedly omnipotent, omniscient being, who by definition should be above such petty human emotions, and what does he do? Sets up a place to torture people who rejected his son/himself. Not only that, but this torture is eternal. An eternal punishment for a microscopic slight from an insignificant monkey-thing made of dust and blood.
I mean, I never asked Jesus to sacrifice himself for me (not that I actually think it happened, but let's roll with it). I find such sacrifice by proxy meaningless. "This guy you never met died for you, specifically to atone for your sins... shouldn't you feel bad/guilty and do what he wants?" No, not really. Because the notion of sin is ridiculous (once again, a perfect being getting all huffy because his blood/dust monkey men didn't behave just so), and, well, what have I done that requires someone dying to make up for it? Not believe in an illogical being that has no evidence of actually existing? My imaginary great-great-great-great-great-...-great-grandmother eating a magic fruit, causing god to curse humanity because he was really embarrassed that, despite his omniscience, he didn't baby-proof Eden well enough, nor did he take his creation's innate curiosity into account?
Laughable.
So, it should make you feel better that there's no hell. No heaven, too. Just oblivion. And that's why it's important to live this life to the fullest. It's the only one we know we have.
