This Has to Stop

[Astonished]

Hi Steveall

It seems like a forum where people are keen to win arguments rather than have an open discussion, but that is true of most forums. It was a culmination of points made by both Hitchens and Harris that started me thinking and probably the biggest stumbling block for me is the concept of the biblical hell. I know most if not all the Christian apologetics for the fairness of hell and as a former evangelist openly used them in defense of the gospel. But after stepping back and attempting to be objective and as honest as I am able I can't marry the concept of a loving a God and eternal torture.
My grandmother recently died, and though she was probably one of the most moral, upright and loving people I have ever known, she never came to accept the gospel. So according to the scriptures, she will spend eternity being perpetually tortured. If she were alive today and anyone attempted to harm her I would spring to her defense with my very life. Anyone that incarcerated and tortured her for whatever perceived wrongs she may have committed would be worthy of only contempt and death (especially if I managed to get my hands on them).So, would it be possible for me to enjoy the biblical heaven, knowing that my grandmother and a multitude of other people were being tortured day and night without reprieve for all eternity? The answer is no. I may well be wrong and end up in hell for all eternity (and according to the Bible it will be worse for me as I have known the truth and walked away). But heaven would be just as much of a hell for me, knowing that people I love are suffering while I enjoy the benefits of redemption. Does this prove that the Bible is wrong and that God does not exist? No, it proves nothing, but it is where I am at and I will face the consequences.

I think of it more as correcting people's misconceptions about definitions, concepts, biblical content, etc., and asking anyone making bald-faced claims to actually put up or shut up. Doesn't usually succeed because they're usually talking out their asses.

The problem of evil automatically demolishes the idea of a good god (free will doesn't cut it as an excuse when there are natural disasters, X% of pregnancies resulting in miscarriages, etc.) but Kevin pretty much summed up why hell is the absolute most damning (pun intended) charge against a good god. Also consider the goodness of a god who is silent when someone, in their most desperate moment, pleads with them for a response or a sign.

Your continual refusal to see this as evidence against a god (not a deistic god who is either indifferent or possibly malignant) that is the convention of so much of society is just yet another symptom we see rife around here. And again, your shifting of the burden of proof is unbecoming. You're the one making the claim that your belief and interpretation are both true and accurate, and we're asking you to show us. Like one of the youtube guys I like listening to best, AronRa, says so succinctly, "If you can't show it, you don't know it." It's extremely arrogant to propose this is perfectly okay to believe in when there is zero justification for it.

What I would advise is study science. Learn all the stuff that would blow your mind wide open in ways the bible couldn't even remotely come close to (and would look like toilet paper by comparison; not that it's much better than that anyway). If you still feel the need to cram god into those tiny gaps in our growing knowledge, by all means, do so, just realize that's a reprehensibly dishonest thing to do and merits no respect or tolerance if it interferes with actual success in experiments and discovery.

If you were to psychoanalyze the character(s) of god and jeebus in that book, it would be a litany of disorders and diagnoses that would probably crack anyone trying to do the most in-depth analysis possible. There is no intellectual or moral high ground to be had coming from the source of that faith and to pretend otherwise in this day and age should come with fraud charges. I'm relieved to hear you're questioning it in a more critical way than almost anyone else I've seen on here still mired in faith, but it still seems like you're going to reach the least reasonable, wrong conclusion just because it's poisoned your mind so thoroughly that the amount of antidote needed is insufficiently provided yet.