For Rich Fetuses Only, Though

[Court Jester]

Depends on the situation really.

If they are busting their ass and honestly doing everything that they can, I feel bad for them. But if they keep at it, they will get to a better situation. It's not always quick and/or easy, but it will happen.  

If they are physically and/or mentally disabled and they don't have the means to "Do Better"; that is a legitimate reason for social welfare systems that SHOULD pay way the hell more than they currently do. I would support higher taxes to improve that situation with few questions and no arguments if the government mandated it and didn't skim cash off the top for other things.

If they aren't willing to take the needed steps for self improvement and just expect to make $30 an hour flipping burgers at McDonalds (if they are willing to work at all), or they make $30,000 a year and get ejected from their $300,000 house because they made a really bad personal life decision with their finances; I'm not going to be bothered by that at all. Really sucks if they have kids, but it's not my place or responsibility, nor should it be.

Being a grown up ain't easy and it does require a bit of effort to be successful at it. This is just within the United States though. Many people in other countries are screwed regardless of what they do.

A few weeks ago I was reading editorials by the Farmers Alliance from the 1880s. It was talking about what it called the "success myth." It bashing the idea that as long as you work really hard, you will succeed and be happy. They didn't only not believe it, they were angered by it. They couldn't believe that people who never experienced being part of the working poor would tell them things about their own class, things that they found contradictory to their own experiences. People say the exact same stuff today, on both sides. I admit it's a great talking point. And it's MUCH truer than it was back then, let me tell you. The rise of industrial capitalism was a pretty bad time to be a worker. 

I gotta say, I'm a bit leery getting into a discussion with you. I know from an experience one of ours that you're intellectually dishonest: I proved you wrong about something regarding fiscal responsibility in Red/Blue states and you sort of nonchalantly said, "Wasn't surprised I was wrong" like you're just used to throwing out truth and lies mixed together. 

"If people bust their ass and work really hard, they will get to a better situation" is an assertion, no? Well let's go ahead and test it like we would any other! Lucky for us I don't have to load up STATA, the Pew Research Center did it for us: Moving On Up: Why Do Some Americans Leave the Bottom of the Economic Ladder, but Not Others?

There's the bottom quartile, the 2nd quartile, then the middle quartile. We see that 43% born into the bottom quartile of the income ladder never made it out. For the ones that did, the study underlines key important factors: race, human capital/college attainment, and coming from a two-earned household; whites were 2 more times likely to leave the bottom than blacks, college grads were 5.3 times more likely to leave the bottom (and 2.5 times more likely to reach the middle quartile), and those who came from dual-earner families were 3.4 times more likely to leave the bottom (and 2.8 times more likely to reach the middle). The study also highlights how important financial capital is; those that moved up had 6 times higher median liquid savings, 8 times higher median wealth, and 21 times higher median home equity. This study uses data from 1968 to 2009. 

So, not that surprising I guess. People born into families with more money, even when "more money" is very relative to where they are on the income ladder, they're going to do well. The more you start off with, the better you are. So ability to go to college, ability to have less debt, having two parents that work full time and maximize their value...not a real shock they're able to save, I guess. Not so much news. And that's why I started the post with the anecdote I did. It told me what people have known since the 1880s, CJ; when you're born poor, I mean really poor...your situation is pretty fucking bleak. Your assertion seems to fail, since it implies that anybody regardless of what they're born into, should be able to make it out if they do things right. It's almost dystopian really. Just keep telling them to "work hard, work hard, you'll get here someday!"until they die. Economy has to run, I guess.

You're atheist, CJ, you know well and good that you, me, and that 43% of people who never made it out of the bottom quartile all have one life. Imagine that being your one chance at life... a vain attempt at the American Dream, working insane hours at an insanely low paying job to live rent to rent until you die. Such is life. We don't need to relentlessly vilify (or patronize) the poor anymore, brah. That is soo 80s!

I will say; that’s one of the few intelligently put together posts I’ve seen on here.

I’d consider myself rather intelligent, but I don’t claim to have every answer in every situation. I can speak largely from my own experience when it comes to a hand full of situations. I’m positive that not every individual born into poverty that tries to make it out ever will make it out. I am, however; positive that those in the United State that take the right steps and push hard enough, absolutely will take at least one step up to the next quartile of society. And more if they take it upon themselves to keep pushing forward.

I grew up in a military family. There aren’t a lot of them that are really well off financially. I’ve served in the Marines, I’ve been homeless, and I’ve taken whore baths in bathroom sinks after work because that was my only option. I didn’t sit back and whine, I worked to do better.

I did get a little help though. For about eight weeks I was doing everything that I could to save every penny that I could. I would do to a Farm and Fleet store every afternoon before going to work the night shift because they had free popcorn and air conditioning. The store manager saw me one day and asked if I was okay. Her and her husband owned a few apartments and she set me up at a reduced price. After several months, I paid her back the difference from what she charged me and what the normal rent was and she bumped it up to full price. I would have gotten to that point sooner or later, but she did help me get there faster.

I’ve since grown past that, I’ve earned a really good education, and I’ve married a 5’ 2” 98 pound bombshell of a woman that’s given me two great sons and helped me open my own, what is now not considered a so small business.

From my own experience; If I hadn’t worked through the hard times, if I hadn’t stayed positive, if I hadn’t taken some debt for a better education, if I hadn’t made it a personal comfort to pay the unrequested debts, if I wasn’t willing to work 10-12 hour shifts while doing to school 4-6 hours, if I didn’t have the balls to pick up and move 300 miles for a much better job offer, etc., etc., I would still be sleeping in my truck. Assuming I was lucky enough to have a truck.

To speak to every point from the Pew Charitable Trust would still leave many gaps. No one can speak to the psychological issues or the true environments to each subject studied. I guess any of them could settle of a reason why they can't improve. Maybe it’s my own mental structure, or my own positive spin that I can put on any situation, or how I find more humor than negativity in pain (my own or other’s), but I am just not absolutely and 100% convinced that they couldn’t do it if they gave it enough effort.

I honestly couldn’t imagine looking anyone in the eye and telling them their situation is too bleak for them to accept or expect anything less than success.