RE: *trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?
December 2, 2017 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2017 at 11:49 am by PhilosophicalZebra.)
Sorry if "trigger warning" seemed a bit of a juvenile phrase, I meant it to be tongue in cheek since obviously coming on to an atheist forum visited by people who are keen to express their views, saying "Hey, maybe you're not totally right." isn't going to attract the most positive responses as I see 
I'm not a troll or anything like that, nor am I strongly religious. I've just seen some flaws in atheism over the last few years and am sincerely interested in a discussion about it now that I can no longer see from the point of view of a total atheist myself. Some people gave some decent, thought-provoking answers and I thank you for that. It's a little sad that some jumped to ad hominem attacks, especially when I thought reasoned discussion was valued by you guys.
Anyway, to respond to some of the points made:
"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."
It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.
My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!
"there is no "atheist community" to which I belong."
Then why are you on here on an atheist forum ready to defend your views along with many others when someone questions them?
"A common misunderstanding. Not all "opinions" are, in fact, equal."
Absolutely, and I thoroughly agree. In this case, I am trying to say that those who say "There is a god, I know it" and "There isn't a god, I know it" have equal amounts of proof for their statements. Each take a leap of faith, atheists just fill in the gaps that we don't understand with certainty that these gaps will never be filled with anything supernatural. Is that assumption not a little closed-minded given how little we have yet to learn about the universe around us? Keeping an open mind about what me may not know and hoping for the best seems more reasoned to me but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
You were a shitty atheist.
Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.
As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?
- Z
@Catholic_Lady
Thanks for your reply - it's cool to know you remember me!
It was really just a bit more life experience, and a more full understanding of why religious people believe what they do. I realised that as open-minded as I thought I was being, I had really been very closed-minded and overly sure that my view only was correct. I witnessed more the power that religion has and how much it helps people and communities. And although I accept I know nothing more than anyone does, I like to have some hope that there is something out there. I can't prove it and I can't say it's there for sure, but I'd rather my leap of faith be for something so positive and meaningful rather than a leap of faith towards a meaningless world.
I totally agree too that of course not all atheists are the same - absolutely not. As you say, everyone has a different personality. I guess I'm just addressing some of the similar views that a lot of atheists have.
I'm not a troll or anything like that, nor am I strongly religious. I've just seen some flaws in atheism over the last few years and am sincerely interested in a discussion about it now that I can no longer see from the point of view of a total atheist myself. Some people gave some decent, thought-provoking answers and I thank you for that. It's a little sad that some jumped to ad hominem attacks, especially when I thought reasoned discussion was valued by you guys.
Anyway, to respond to some of the points made:
"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."
It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.
My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!
"there is no "atheist community" to which I belong."
Then why are you on here on an atheist forum ready to defend your views along with many others when someone questions them?
"A common misunderstanding. Not all "opinions" are, in fact, equal."
Absolutely, and I thoroughly agree. In this case, I am trying to say that those who say "There is a god, I know it" and "There isn't a god, I know it" have equal amounts of proof for their statements. Each take a leap of faith, atheists just fill in the gaps that we don't understand with certainty that these gaps will never be filled with anything supernatural. Is that assumption not a little closed-minded given how little we have yet to learn about the universe around us? Keeping an open mind about what me may not know and hoping for the best seems more reasoned to me but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
You were a shitty atheist.
Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.
As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?
- Z
@Catholic_Lady
Thanks for your reply - it's cool to know you remember me!
It was really just a bit more life experience, and a more full understanding of why religious people believe what they do. I realised that as open-minded as I thought I was being, I had really been very closed-minded and overly sure that my view only was correct. I witnessed more the power that religion has and how much it helps people and communities. And although I accept I know nothing more than anyone does, I like to have some hope that there is something out there. I can't prove it and I can't say it's there for sure, but I'd rather my leap of faith be for something so positive and meaningful rather than a leap of faith towards a meaningless world.
I totally agree too that of course not all atheists are the same - absolutely not. As you say, everyone has a different personality. I guess I'm just addressing some of the similar views that a lot of atheists have.
