*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[Simon Moon]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

The only way to not be a 'very proper atheist', is to believe in a god.

The other stuff you mention has nothing to do with atheism. That might have been you, just being a bit of a dick.

But amidst all of my unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism, I now see in hindsight that I failed to ask myself one very important question - what makes me so sure of my beliefs?

The only thing I have an 'unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism' about concerning the existence of gods is, that no theist ever, has met their burden of proof. I have never claimed that I am absolutely certain that no gods exist.

You seem to have the usual misconception, that atheism is the positive claim that gods don't exist.

I pose the above question to you today because I want you to consider this deeply. I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious I acted towards a topic which I, and every single one of you reading this post, have absolutely no certainty of. We are all clueless. We can guess, yes - we can ponder and theorise what the answer could be. But ultimately the answers we all come up with are nothing short of personal opinion or hope. Spouting out statements full of 100% assurance, as I see so many atheists do, like "There is no afterlife - deal with it" or "God doesn't exist - now enjoy life" demonstrate an almost - dare I say - religious sense of certainty?

Again, there is no need, nor are the vast majority of atheists 100% certain that no gods or an afterlife exist.

Atheism can simply be stated as, not being convinced that gods exist. Full stop. There is no requirement to make the counter-positive claim, that no gods exist.

So, so far, all your bluster seems to be based on positions that most atheists do not hold. Even Dawkins does not state that he is absolutely certain that gods don't exist.

This brings me to my next point: whether you are willing to see this or not (and I too remember wincing years ago when people said this but I now see their reasoning) - atheism follows almost all of the characteristics of an organised religion. It provides you with a sense of certitude, like you have figured out the universe; it gives you a community to belong to; there are bishop-like figures, think Dawkins, Krauss, etc etc., you make statements which you don't know are true for sure. - and finally: non-believers should be ridiculed because their views are *obviously* wrong and yours are completely, unquestionably correct - right?

So much wrong in one paragraph.

Again, atheism is just the disbelief in the existence of gods. There are no dogma, tenets, scripture, authority figures. In no way does, nor can atheism have the characteristics of an organised religion. Remember, atheism is simply not being convinced that gods exist.

All of the public atheists that you mention have said things that I disagree with.

If Dawkins or Krauss became theists tomorrow, unless they could support their beliefs with demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument, I'd go on with my life with not much thought.

Beyond this, I wish to understand the following: why is such visceral contempt held towards the idea of daring to have some hope that this universe may have a greater meaning beyond this one? Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone. They choose (and I can completely understand why) to be optimistic and hopeful in what can be a sad and confusing world rather than desperately trying - quite strangely - to promote the idea of a universe devoid of any greater meaning at all. I ask you to please consider this the next time you laugh at such people.

I have no contempt, just wonder how people can believe things without good evidence and valid and sound logic to support their god beliefs.

The thing is, I only care if these things are true, or likely to be true. You seem to be advocating for people to believe things if it makes them feel good, or hopeful.

Don't you care if your beliefs are true?

Finally, to wrap up this post, I want to make one more point: if you are to fully embrace the cold harshness of rationalism and scientific reasoning as a guide for your philosophical views, you must see that in doing this you also accept that in nature there are no concepts of good or bad - the only guide you can get from it is to take what you can get and maximise your own happiness. No justice, no reward for good, or judgement for bad. Just do as you please. This is what rationalism looks like in practice - not ideal for a cohesive society.

You are forgetting that we are social animals, with evolved senses of altruism, reciprocity, kin selection, etc, that lead to having moral and ethical motivations.

I agree, that there is no cosmic justice system, we create our own, based on well being. You do know, that secular societies tend to more moral and ethical than religious ones, right?

I'm not sure about you, but given that our views on the world are personal choice due to our lack of knowledge about it all, I'd take a creed which at its core promotes love, justice, and selflessness towards others over a world view that's equally unprovable but is rooted in nothing more than a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit.

All of what you mention above is perfectly compatible with atheism. Have you even heard of "secular humanism"?

Atheism does not equate to a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit. All one has to do is check out the most atheist societies on the planet. Sweden (almost 80% atheist), Finland, Denmark, just to name a few, have lower crime rates, lower poverty rates, lower infant mortality, etc, than the vast majority of mostly religious countries.