(January 31, 2018 at 11:39 pm)wNeo-Scholastic Wrote:(January 31, 2018 at 8:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Does feeling remorse for wrongdoings, acknowledging that you are not perfect, and wanting to be better, in and of itself, count as some sort of recognition of the need for redemption?
Once the need is recognized, sure, that would be a step in the right direction. A person still needs to look outside themselves for both salvation and forgiveness. As the Schoolmen said, "you cannot give what you do not have." That is why atheists cannot go to Heaven. They have arrogated unto themselves a power they do not have - the ability to absolve sin.
If I've hurt someone, and, through conscience, reflection, and empathy, recognise and feel remorse for it, then the person I want to make amends with... make it up to and make it right with... is the person I've actually hurt. If I steal from you, it is you that is affected and hurt by that action... you that suffers as a result of it... and you whose suffering I wish I had not caused and want to undo/reduce/compensate for as much as possible. Getting forgiveness/absolution from you is secondary to the goal of alleviating your suffering; if forgiving me helps you to heal, then great, but if for whatever reason you'd deal better by not forgiving, then that's the price I have to pay and part of my compensation to you. So I do look outside myself... but it is towards the person I've actually hurt... the person most affected by my actions... the person whose suffering I want to remove and regret causing in the first place.
Serious question; as a Christian, if you feel you've wronged someone, who's your first port of call when you're seeking to make amends... and likewise who do you feel most sorry to? God, or the person you've actually hurt? And what is the primary aim? Receiving forgiveness for yourself, or making amends for your actions...ie reducing the affected being's suffering as much as possible, even if it causes you hurt? If the answer is God, then frankly that makes no sense to me; though it may be one of God's commandments, if I steal from you it is you that is most directly affected by that action, even if god exists... you that suffers as a result of it and you that would not have suffered in the absence of it. Ie without suffering of some kind, by man or god, it seems there could be no 'sin' beyond the completely arbitrary, so if you want to make the case that God is more deserving of your focus when making amends than the person directly affected by the action, it seems to me you need to explain why God suffers more as a result of it than the person directly affected... eg why me stealing from you causes him more suffering than it causes you, and that's not even to address whether an omni-everything being, who makes all the rules, can suffer in the first place.