Philosophical zombies

[Edwardo Piet]

But there is clearly a sense in which a p-zombie *would* know a great deal. They would be able to recall facts. They would be able to relate 'experiences'. They would be able to go on and on about how beautiful a painting is. They would be able to talk coherently about consciousness, etc.

None of that is relevant. Again, whether they're conscious or not is whether they have a first person perspective. Whether they have qualia. The fact that they can behave like a conscious person from the third person perspective (from other people's perspectives) is wholly irrelevant.

Someone could act and behave exactly like a conscious person.... and not be conscious at all. And we'd have no way of telling the difference. If you don't think that's me saying that P-Zeds are possible then I don't know what you think I'm saying. Yes their brains would be slightly different, but no we would not be able to tell because all brains are slightly different and we don't have any way of testing who is and isn't conscious.

They would act *in every way* as if they were conscious, including long discussions about consciousness where they insist they are conscious!

Yes. And this is not impossible. And no, they don't have to have identical brains. Does that make them not P-zeds? Okay, fair enough. But then.... P-zeds aren't possible but people who aren't conscious but seem like normal conscious people to everyone else are still possible. And I think they're equally as interesting as P-zeds, for the exact same reasons, except without the stupid non-physicalism.

So, it is clear (to me) that a physically identical zombie that acts in *every* way the same as a conscious person is, in fact, conscious. They have an internal state. They know and feel.

Yes. Physical brains produce consciousness.... so if you have two physically identical people... either they're both conscious or they're both unconscious. One can't be conscious and the other not be.

However, it is possible for two almost identical people to be identical in every way except the parts of the brain that makes them conscious. So you have one person who is conscious and the other who isn't, and science isn't able to tell which one is conscious and which one isn't because they behave exactly the same and science has no idea which parts of the brain is producing consciousness, so although their brains are different... one is a P-Zed and the other isn't and science has no idea which is which. This is still a hard problem of a kind, as far as I am concerned.

You are missing the point by allowing for the consciousness center of their brain to be removed. That is CERTAINLY not allowed for a p-zombie. The whole point is that they are physically identical in every way and they don't have consciousness. The question is whether *that* is possible.

No, you are missing the point because there is no consciousness center. And the whole reason P-zeds are interesting is because the notion of a normal healthy human being who functions exactly like a normal conscious person, but isn't conscious, and science can't tell the difference.... that is interesting and a hard problem. If their brains were slightly different and it's accepted that non-physicalism and dualism is of course retarded... that doesn't make the interestingness of P-zeds or the hard problem go away.

The fact you could have two people with almost identical brains and one is conscious and the other isn't and science can't tell the difference.... is a hard problem. And the one that isn't conscious, if you wouldn't call them a P-zed just because their brain wasn't identical to the other, what would you call them?

The hard problem exists and people who seem conscious to other people but aren't are still possible... all without the stupid non-physicalism part that isn't worth debating anyway. You may as well be debating about whether an imaginary friend who created the universe exists. Which I think everyone should rightfully grow rather tired of because either you're logical enough to at least eventually realize supernaturalism is bullshit or you're not.