(May 28, 2018 at 11:02 am)Edwardo Piet Wrote:(May 28, 2018 at 10:47 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Says who though? Isnt value subjective to the person who is doing the valueing? That's an argument I've seen said here many times. Obviously (and unfortunately) everyone doesnt matter to everyone.
Like I said, once we accept that needless suffering is bad... to say that one person matters more than another is just bias and special pleading. That's my point, if suffering matters full stop there's no justification for saying that yours matters more than anyone else's or anyone else's matters more than you. The whole reason it's bad is because of the nature of suffering, and the reason why I say needless is because sometimes you have to suffer a little bit in order to reduce MORE suffering in the long run. So ultimately, suffering is intrinsically something to avoid. This is why I say needless suffering.
Someone would need to rationally justify the fact that they were special and mattered more than anyone else. And of course, they can't do that.
It's subjective to say that someone matters more than someone else. But it's objective to say that everyone matters equally once we accept what matters that we all have in common. The point is that your suffering and my suffering matters equally for exactly the same reason: needless suffering is bad in and of itself. WHO suffers is irrelevant.
Even when we punish a murderer and make them suffer, that's only because they made others suffer even more and we're trying to prevent further suffering. Of course, revenge is not justified. If someone is punished there has to be some benefit that comes out of it. The benefit being ultimately less suffering. Otherwise it is unjustified.
I mean, this is also why we lock criminals up, of course. To stop them hurting others.
What if my justification is this: value is a matter of assignment. A thing has value only so far as it has been assigned value by the people who value it. So if I don't care about or don't like a particular individual, that person has no value to me. In other words, a thing has no value apart from the value the individual person gives it.
Again, I'm playing devil's advocate. What I've said above is actually something I've seen written here many times by atheists who believe morality and human value are subjective.
Are you saying human beings have intrinsic value? If so, says who?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
-walsh
