Atheism isn't a worldview, but

[Fred]

Folks that answer yes to that are the fundies, the mythic worldview that held ascendency for a few thousand years, so it's got deep roots. All the family values, chosen people, respect for law and order and tradition conservative stuff that drives you crazy springs from this world view, as does the us vs. them, in group/out group dynamic. All behaviors that proved to, uh, confer a survival advantage, etc. They got us a long way and they are still alive and kicking vigorously. But the were eclipsed on the big board by you know who:

That doesn't even approach the question that was asked. What is moral truth?

Right. That's why I started a new thread.

Is it true because the Bible said so or because mommy said so?

Someone operating from the mythic pov would say absolutely, as I'm sure you have heard them do frequently.

You may skirt around the topic of morality, but you don't even come close to describing what makes it true.

I'm not skirting anything. I started a different thread to discuss worldviews.

Sure, it's an answer, but to an entirely different question.

Which is why I started a different thread.

Yup, the rational/scientific you know so well. Child of the enlightenment, age of reason, classical age, industrial age, mechanistic, all that. Homecourt for your team, which is why you defend it so strongly. No, we defend it because it's the truth. Well, of course. And it is the truth, except when it isn't. at least when it is. You see, it depends on the context. Which is where these guys come in.

Okay, here we touch on the truth. Rationale and science are the methods by which to come by the truth.

As defined by the rationalist pov. You no doubt have ample evidence of mythic folk disagreeing with you here. They have a different answer. You've no doubt shared the frustration often expressed regarding their inability to accept the simplest facts and logic and all that. It's true, because they aren't seeing it from your pov, but theirs. That is what this thread would be about if I had my way, exploring those reasons. They aren't hocus pocus.

It might be true that a person believes in god and believes that god holds the key to our morals, but that does not make it true.

To them it does, but to you it doesn't. That's why you yell at each other all the time. You don't hear each other because you may use the same words, but you aren't speaking the same language. Venus/Mars kind of shit.

In fact, the only evidence of it is that very belief, which is kind of like using a conclusion as evidence.

Precisely. That's exactly what it is.

and rationale are ways to pick things apart and find the core of it, not just the conclusion.

Precisely, the sequel. That's why it is such an incredible gift and why it was a reaction to the mythic faith answer.

are we averse to such things?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's the fascinating part.

Why, when someone is never exposed to the Christian god or belief system, can he still have morals that are all about not hurting other people?

Depend on who the other people are, and that's where worldviews become so important. For the mythic, no matter what particular flavor, the people you don't hurt are the others in your group. Those outside are fair game. The chosen people bit. It's not until the rational that the idea of extending that care (at least ideologically) to everyone regardless or group was put into play, which is why slavery gets abolished with the rise of the rational pov and not before.

These questions can be answered by studying human behavior, body and mind.

Right. I'm talking about what the folks who have studied it came up with when it comes to worldviews and development.

So, we defend it because it is the best way to find the truth, if the truth is what a person actually seeks.

Change "the" truth to "that" truth and yes. Mythics firmly believe you are simply not interested in "the" truth, which is why you have to go to all these scientific lengths to ignore the obvious. You know that drill, I'm sure. And your facts are absolutely useless as far as swaying them from this opinion, a fact I'm sure you are also familiar with.

I don't hate people for having different cultures. It isn't a fucking war. A war is an armed conflict.

I didn't invent the term, and it's not about different cultures. It's about different worldviews within a culture and the fact that distinctly don't like each other and why they are at war. They all want to be the dominant voice for the culture at large.

I would not shoot a person for thinking their morals are right and mine are wrong. Using terminology like "war" incites drama around a topic that doesn't need it. People instigate this shit by demanding answers about morality and using inflammatory language such as yours.

I haven't demanded any answers about morality and haven't used any inflammatory language, so whoever your kick is with, it isn't with me.

You're arguing it to, buddy. Don't forget that.

No, I'm arguing something else. I have no interest in the usual back and forth you guys deal in. I've never been a part of that, so it's not where I'm coming from.

At any rate, calling a fundie something is typically different than calling an atheist something, given that fundies have a myriad of core beliefs that they either have or they are not fundies.

Exactly. That's my whole point. You can and do have fundie atheists, rationalist atheists, relativist atheists , which is why atheism is not a worldview per se. Usually, though, when folks think of atheists, they think of the rationalist brand. That may not be right, but that's the price of the gnu atheist bit.

All three views are part of development, personally and historically, but since each thinks the other two don't get it, they are at culture war and each one seeking to get ascendency is what it's all about. The particular issues are just the different battle fronts.

How do you ever finish a conversation talking like that? You are drawing lines in the sand that aren't necessarily there.

Not sure what lines you mean, but again, it's not like I'm just pulling this out of the air. There really is a field called developmental psych and stuff like this is part of what they study.