Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus

[downbeatplumb]

Since the topic came up in great detail in the Why believe the Bible? thread, I thought why not make a thread to cover this topic.

What are your opinions on Josephus' writings? Is the TF partially authentic or entirely fabricated?

Lets look at the reference.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Its a forgery. Remember Josephus was a jew till he died but that's fan boy speak of Christ if ever there was one. You never get the context do you with this what were the passages before and after this because if he wrote it the passage afterwards should be along the lines of and now he's a Christian.

It would be like me saying and mohammed was a fine man who spoke directly to the lord allah. And then remain an atheist.

What about the more elusive James reference?

You mean.

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:

I would say at least partly forged. Remember lying for the church was a very very common things for scribes to do. if they couldn't find evidence they just made it up. All the time.

And while we're at it why not go ahead and discuss others as well. Pliny, Justin, Clement, the Apostle Paul, etc.

Pliny you mean the letter he wrote to Trajan in 112 ad about 80 years after christs supposed execution which seems to be about the existance of Christians rather than Christ. It would be like saying that scientologists exists it is proof of xenu.

Similarly Justin wrote in ad 150 120 years after Christ supposedly died.

And it goes on and on.

I'm curious to hear view from both atheists and theists here on these writings as well. Let's compare and contrast our views and interpretations.

The "evidence" for Christ is thin to non-existent. But even if there was a historical Christ you would still have all your work to then try and show that it wasn't just a con man.


I tend to think there was an actual person and it was a cultish David Koresch or Charles Manson type with a hold over their followers that lingered after death. You see that with the Branch Davidian who still follow David Koresch to this day.

I think this because of the way he was killed and the mental gymnastics required to turn the ignominious death by crucifixion into a somehow worthy death.