EvF Wrote:In anything other than simply 'evitability', etc I don't know how 'free will' would exactly work or what it would even BE like. How we would even tell?
(May 20, 2009 at 1:00 pm)g-mark Wrote: Do you not make decisions for yourself?
The evidence is in your decisions. As you make descisions and you are aware. You may have to live with the fact that you may never have your proof.
If I 'make decisions' in the sense that I do stuff and think I had any choice in the matter. Where is the evidence that I did? Simply believing that I had I had any choice in the matter of my decisions is not evidence that i do.
As far as I know the 'choices I make' themselves just happen and bounce about - I mean it's just physics. Whether I do or don't take credit for them or not is not evidence or not for if I really have any choice in the matter in the choices themselves.
And if the choices themselves CAN'T be chosen then it makes no practical difference to determinism. So how is THAT free will? It would simply mean that if they're not determined and they're like that that that they're bouncing about more randomly (however slight or much) rather than being predetermined.
Where is the evidence that I have any choice in the matter? I 'make decisions' but if I take credit for them that is NOT evidence that I have any choice in those decisions.
As far as I know they just happen.
Quote:For some things there is no evidence and there never will be.
Maybe so. I mean I certainly don't believe the human race is going to last forever anyway. And I also think that there are very probably some things that are just beyond the human capacity to 'know'. And how would you know if there weren't or not if it's outside the human capacity to know?
Quote:It will just be a thought.The brain is being studied though .Whether consciousness can ever be fully understood or not I do not know.
But the thing is, yes - a thought. We have thoughts. And sometimes those thoughts contain our belief that we CHOOSE those thoughts. I know of no evidence that we do though. As far as I know our thoughts just happen - and if they just happen then the thoughts influence each other and the environment does - it's just physics, and any 'decisions' we make whether we take credit for them or not - is not evidence that we are doing anything other than simply just thinking stuff WITHOUT any choice in the matter - we could still BELIEVE we have a choice in our own thoughts without having any. But I know of any evidence that we DO.
As far as I know at least a LOT of us (those who believe in 'free will' basically) take credit for our own choices and BELIEVE we 'made them happen'. Some don't believe that.
And I know of any evidence TO believe that. As far as I know there is no evidence of 'free will' - believing we have choice is not evidence of choice.
Quote:How do you explain choice in what we do?
We do stuff because of physics and part of that physics includes us having thoughts that sometimes include us BELIEVING we CHOSE those thoughts or 'made that decision' happen. But I know of no evidence of us actually making stuff happen as far as I know we are simply part of physics bouncing about whether that includes us simply BELIEVING that we 'make choices' or not - I know of no evidence that we ACTUALLY DO 'make choices' - it's just physics whether determined or INdetermined and therefore more random.
Determinism imples NO free will.
But INdeterminism doesn't imply free will.
There is no evidence of free will in either case as far as I know. It is simply that with determinism it's impossible and with INdeterminism the possibility is perhaps open. I still no of no evidence whatsoever - it may be possible but I still have no reason to believe it's any more probable whatsoever other than the possibility merely being open perhaps.
Quote:What happens if you don't make a choice?
We 'make choices' in the fact we do stuff and say "I chose to do that" - we take credit for it. But as far as I know there is no evidence that we actually DID. We believe we have a choice in the matter. I know of no evidence that we actually do though. It's just physics.
EvF
