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My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
#1
My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
Morality is the product of selfish interests. When slavery served a selfish interest, it was considered good and moral. When murder served a selfish interest, it was considered good and moral. How many bleeding hearts are there for the over 100 million Native Americans that were enslaved and killed during the invasion and progressive occupation of the land we now know as America? Of course people will say it was wrong, but it's mostly lip service. Clearly very few felt that way while the horrific injustice was taking place during the 15th century and on. 

Thanksgiving is LITERALLY the celebration of Native American slaughter. 

And, more to the point,  there is no evidence that a god of any kind has instilled any consistent sense of moral values, least of all Yahweh. Yahweh allegedly arranged for the 10 commandments but obviously never felt any individual conviction for most of those laws, as he has called for and condoned contradicting actions with several of those commandments. 

The reason for this is simple: Yahweh doesn't exist, except in the minds of those who invented him and those who perpetuate that invention. Since he doesn't exist, he needs people to make up his mind for him, which they do all the time. And, the moral values of people are motivated by selfishness, hence, they change with time and circumstances and different environments. 

Here's a clear example of the selfish nature of moral values: if your neighbor is a problem for you, or just simply someone you don't like, you will tolerate his existence because any action on your part, which threatens your neighbor's existence, also threatens your social standing and your freedom. However, if you see a spider in your home, you will likely end it's existence yourself or have someone else do it. You kill the spider merely because you don't like it's presence and you don't hesitate to kill it because there are no consequences for such an action. You have no moral conscience about ending the life of this being. You won't lose a wink of sleep over it. 

I know that probably seems like a silly example, and that's really the point. Moral values are so clearly associated with selfish motivations that some attempts at moral consideration seem ridiculously insignificant. The truth is, ANYTHING that cannot be traced back to a selfish motivation is not a moral consideration at all. The spider was merely one of literally thousands of other examples that support that theory. 

When the land we call America was invaded by Europeans, the "Indians" were widely viewed as vastly inferior and insignificant animals. This is a well documented point of view. They were basically spiders (or an infestation) that needed to be eradicated except for their slight value as rape victims, land guides, slaves, and christian converts/conquests that could be boasted about to European royalty.  

This may seem like a cynical point of view, but it's really not. Although our selfish motivations have led to much destruction and suffering, it's also served to further technology, extend the human life span, and enhance the overall quality of human life. 

In short, if we can somehow avoid bringing about our own demise, which is something we have a selfish interest in avoiding, it's easy to see an even more prosperous and mutually beneficial future. 

You see, that's the real silver lining in our selfish nature, it's to our benefit to create a more widely beneficial existence, and we, as a civilization, are learning that, even if it is at a relatively slow progression. 

In time (a long time), I believe we will eliminate religion and the personal god, among many other deterrents to human prosperity, and we will take huge strides toward a far more lengthy and fulfilling existence. Because eventually we will realize the things that stand in the way of a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life and we will squash those things like a spider.
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#2
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
I think that it's a big misnoemer to say that 'we' collectively were for slavery or the genocide of the American Indians. There were always dissenters and slavery always had people opposed to it.
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#3
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 28, 2015 at 10:26 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think that it's a big misnoemer to say that 'we' collectively were for slavery or the genocide of the American Indians. There were always dissenters and slavery always had people opposed to it.

I don't think I ever inferred a complete and utter consensus. In fact, because moral values are selfishly rooted, it's naive and mathematically unlikely to think that a complete and utter consensus has every existed. People obviously had selfish reasons for wanting genocide and slavery and others had selfish reasons for opposing it. 

That's really not the point, anyway. The point is, theists often argue that there is inherent moral value which can only be explained by god. But the course of human history clearly demonstrates that no such divine moral value exists. We are individuals (or self), therefore, we are naturally selfish. Are values are based around that nature. That's why killing a spider or an ant or a cockroach is an action that has no significant effect on moral conscience. It does not evidently carry with it consequences for the individual. 

That is typical, of course. But, conversely, I have occasionally run into people who do have a moral conscience about killing certain insects like spiders. For example: I once had a person tell me, "Don't kill Daddy Long Leg Spiders, they kill other spiders and they eat flies." This person developed a moral association with the killing of one particular insect that was obviously rooted in selfish interests. 

I'm sure you know that, in some countries, people consume dogs as food. In the United States, that is generally considered morally appalling. And, why? Because people in the United States find joy in having them as pets. They have also been found to be useful in hunting, police work, and assisting the blind. But in other countries their value is found in the taste they can produce. 

Completely different moral values, both rooted in selfish interests.
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#4
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 28, 2015 at 8:41 pm)smax Wrote: In time (a long time), I believe we will eliminate religion and the personal god, among many other deterrents to human prosperity, and we will take huge strides toward a far more lengthy and fulfilling existence. Because eventually we will realize the things that stand in the way of a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life and we will squash those things like a spider.

I'm sooooo confused. Are you giving me permission to kill my American Indian spider loving annoying neighbor? What if I love my American Indian neighbor? Should I warn him that he's like a spider and he'll be squashed? Or are American Indians like old spiders and have nothing to worry about, I can only squash 'new' spiders. You seemed pretty adamant that I kill spiders. What if I recognize the value of spiders and don't want to kill them. Do I sacrifice a neighbor? I suppose that counts. What if my neighbor isn't American Indian? Do I have to sacrifice two neighbors? If I prefer a teepee over a tent, does that mean I now have to sacrifice three neighbors or just one neighbor and two spiders, or two neighbors and one spider?

I'm dealing with some serious decisions here. Do you have a hotline I can call?
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#5
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 28, 2015 at 8:41 pm)smax Wrote: Thanksgiving is LITERALLY the celebration of Native American slaughter. 

I wouldn't all-caps "literally" when the thing you're saying is false.  Thanksgiving is IMPLICITLY CONNECTED to Native American slaughter.  It is "literally" about giving thanks, to the natives and to God, for bounty provided in time of need.
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#6
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 28, 2015 at 11:01 pm)Cato Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 8:41 pm)smax Wrote: In time (a long time), I believe we will eliminate religion and the personal god, among many other deterrents to human prosperity, and we will take huge strides toward a far more lengthy and fulfilling existence. Because eventually we will realize the things that stand in the way of a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life and we will squash those things like a spider.

I'm sooooo confused. Are you giving me permission to kill my American Indian spider loving annoying neighbor? What if I love my American Indian neighbor? Should I warn him that he's like a spider and he'll be squashed? Or are American Indians like old spiders and have nothing to worry about, I can only squash 'new' spiders. You seemed pretty adamant that I kill spiders. What if I recognize the value of spiders and don't want to kill them. Do I sacrifice a neighbor? I suppose that counts. What if my neighbor isn't American Indian? Do I have to sacrifice two neighbors? If I prefer a teepee over a tent, does that mean I now have to sacrifice three neighbors or just one neighbor and two spiders, or two neighbors and one spider?

I'm dealing with some serious decisions here. Do you have a hotline I can call?

I don't have a hotline, but I hear they let you make a phone call from jail. I suggest you call a loved one instead. 

Big Grin
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#7
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 28, 2015 at 11:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 8:41 pm)smax Wrote: Thanksgiving is LITERALLY the celebration of Native American slaughter. 

I wouldn't all-caps "literally" when the thing you're saying is false.  Thanksgiving is IMPLICITLY CONNECTED to Native American slaughter.  It is "literally" about giving thanks, to the natives and to God, for bounty provided in time of need.

Do you really think that? Do you really think that a celebration in the spirit of appreciating Native Americans was being observed while these same natives were progressively being raped, slaved, and flat out murdered nearly out of existence?

Allow me to enlighten you. After over a hundred years of Thanksgiving celebrations of victories and slaughters of various Indian tribes and villages, George Washington finally suggested that merely one day of Thanksgiving be observed per year in celebration of these "victories". Now, in case there is any doubt about Washington's intentions, observe this piece of his own writing, taken from a letter he wrote to General John Sullivan, which instructs him to attack the people of the Iroguois:


Quote:lay waste all the settlements around... that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.... do not listen to any overture of peace before the total ruin of their settlements is effected.

Now, this is the man that suggested the celebration you so fondly think of as "Thanksgiving" be observed once a year, as it now is. 

Does he sound like someone who wished to honor Native Americans?
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#8
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)smax Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 11:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I wouldn't all-caps "literally" when the thing you're saying is false.  Thanksgiving is IMPLICITLY CONNECTED to Native American slaughter.  It is "literally" about giving thanks, to the natives and to God, for bounty provided in time of need.

Do you really think that? Do you really think that a celebration in the spirit of appreciating Native Americans was being observed while these same natives were progressively being raped, slaved, and flat out murdered nearly out of existence?
Yes, I do think that, because that's what "literally" means.  Literally, Thanksgiving is a giving of thanks.
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#9
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 29, 2015 at 12:27 am)bennyboy Wrote:
(June 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)smax Wrote: Do you really think that? Do you really think that a celebration in the spirit of appreciating Native Americans was being observed while these same natives were progressively being raped, slaved, and flat out murdered nearly out of existence?
Yes, I do think that, because that's what "literally" means.  Literally, Thanksgiving is a giving of thanks.

No argument here. It is literally the giving of thanks to god for the slaughter, conquest, and victory over the Native Americans. 

That's what I said in the first place LITERALLY. 

LOL.
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#10
RE: My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values
(June 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)smax Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 11:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I wouldn't all-caps "literally" when the thing you're saying is false.  Thanksgiving is IMPLICITLY CONNECTED to Native American slaughter.  It is "literally" about giving thanks, to the natives and to God, for bounty provided in time of need.

Do you really think that? Do you really think that a celebration in the spirit of appreciating Native Americans was being observed while these same natives were progressively being raped, slaved, and flat out murdered nearly out of existence?

Allow me to enlighten you. After over a hundred years of Thanksgiving celebrations of victories and slaughters of various Indian tribes and villages, George Washington finally suggested that merely one day of Thanksgiving be observed per year in celebration of these "victories". Now, in case there is any doubt about Washington's intentions, observe this piece of his own writing, taken from a letter he wrote to General John Sullivan, which instructs him to attack the people of the Iroguois:


Quote:lay waste all the settlements around... that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.... do not listen to any overture of peace before the total ruin of their settlements is effected.

Now, this is the man that suggested the celebration you so fondly think of as "Thanksgiving" be observed once a year, as it now is. 

Does he sound like someone who wished to honor Native Americans?
Good old George was definitely a pure-blooded racist and bigot.  He led the fight against the British so that he could keep his slaves.  And he wanted to kill off the Indians so that slavery could be expanded in their former lands.
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