(August 2, 2018 at 12:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:(August 2, 2018 at 11:10 am)Khemikal Wrote: In fact..nothing about you gives you value in the eyes of god, which is why it categorically fails as intrinsic or inherent value. If you happen to be obedient enough to please his arbitrary strictures..however....you're golden. You tell us that "paul" underpins intrinsic value but only deign to provide a list of things which you contend granted no value at all (despite some of those things being very much on gods radar, and pauls....and most of them being intrinsic in ways that obedience simply isn't.
OFC, we have the new wrinkle of your stuffing modern egalitarian and secular values into the mouth of an iron age nativist god. God is gender neutral..suddenly. God doesn't care about the circumstances of your birth despite making a covenant with his chosen master race. Do you imagine that "paul" was drawing from judeo-christian tradition in any divergence you see there (real or imagined)...or expressing his then-current hellenist upbringing? I think it;s breathtaking that you've imagined that greek or roman philosophy was somehow silent on this issue in a way that paul was not. The oldest treatises we have on the subject in the western tradition...are from pagan greeks and romans.
First, Your rebuttal is predicated on our value to God depending on our obedience. That is completely false.
John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 15:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Ephesians 2:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
1 John 4:8 ESV
8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 4:9-10 New International Version (NIV)
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Second, show me where Greek or Roman philosophy even spoke about universal intrinsic value--let alone where that was actually part of anyone's worldview.
Obey, yep, key word.
Unfortunately for you, in the modern free west, our governments don't blindly obey, but have moved to the concept of rule by consent of the governed.
None of that book of mythology reflects our modern western values.
You know who else demands "obedience"? ISIS.
Now when you can prove to me your bible provides for impeachment of your God, then I will concede I was wrong. Otherwise I will maintain that that book was written in the age of dictators, which is what a king is.