As far as I know there is evidence that IF we live in a deterministic universe then that would indeed be like RIGGED dice as I say...it's gonna go one way only even if it SEEMS like there is possibilities to us...
Now if we live in an INdeterministic universe (and I don't really know much on the subject but I've heard both from Adrian and others that Quantum Mechanics supports INdeterminism so I'd say AT LEAST when it comes down to it I believe that we do indeed live in an INdeterministic one unless I know of any contradictory evidence....
..Anyway - In an INdeterministic universe it's more like normal UNrigged dice I assume. Because there is evidence that Indeterminism means more possibilites and it's really all a matter of probability but as far as I know there is only evidence that we BELIEVE that we deliberately choose or influence those possibilities not that we actually DO - and the belief in and of itself is not remotely evidence. How could it be?
And do random UNrigged dice simply with more possibilites have any more 'free will' than rigged dice that are determined to fall on one specific number, to go one specific way? No.
And as far as I know we're simply EXTREMELY complex compared to dice, we are biological and we think we are alive and we often BELIEVE we 'make choices' - but I know of no evidence that we actually do. We just believe we do.
So no, - I do NOT think there are assumptions on both sides. I (at least until I hear a counter argument) think that the argument is firmly strong in favour of NO 'free will'.
As far as I know 'free will' is no more likely with INdeterminism than determinism - other than simply the fact that INdeterminism perhaps opens the mere possibility for 'free will'.
I still know of no evidence either way or any more reason to to think 'free will' is probable. How on earth would it work anyway??
Where is the evidence that we 'make choices' other than simply we BELIEVE we do and we 'CALL it that.' As far as I know we are just very complicated biological machines. And the fact we simply BELIEVE we have 'free will', as I said, is not remotely evidence that we DO.
EvF
I support Dennett...I believe he backs up my argument?
BECAUSE - he isn't defining free will as most do...he defines 'free will' as evitability!
BECAUSE - basically EVERYONE believes in evitability! We do AVOID things we are EVITABLE whether we have free will or not! That's obvious! As Dennett says...if someone chucks a brick at you - you can duck! That's evitabiltiy. Avoidability. That's OBVIOUS! With or without the USUAL definition of 'free will' being true or not.
We as humans have more avoidability....DUH...we have a lot of freedom - we can go to the MOON for Christs sake!
But is there any evidence that we actually have 'free will' in the NORMAL sense it is used....IOW that we can actually make choices freely?
Our choices are part of physics...yes we have freedom in the sense of EVITABILITY - but whether we can CHOOSE things or not is just an illusion IMO.
We CALL it making choices....a lot of us (myself not included) BELIEVE we have a choice - but is that remote evidence that we do other than we BELIEVE we do and we simply CALL it that? No.
Normal, random UNrigged dice have more freedom and evitability than rigged dice. But do they have any more choice in the matter of how we are thrown? No evidence for that!!
Just as with determinism and INdeterminism. Determinism implies that the future is rigged...with INdeterminism it's not...it's uncertain - but is there any evidence that IT can choose it's path or that We are any different and that WE can CHOOSE our path? When our CHOICES are part of this indetermined, uncertain physics bouncing about too?
We have thoughts....we have choices...but can we choose our thoughts or choices? I know of no evidence of this...
It's physics. Any evidence we can override it? I think not.
Belief in 'choice' is not evidence of the truth of it. We may CALL it 'making choices' but that is not remotely evidence that we actually DO make choices...we just CALL IT that.
Do we really have any choice in the matter just because we believe we do and have awareness? I think not.
We have freedom and evitability. But we are entirely bound by physics. We are part of it - this is a physical universe. Where is the evidence that we actually 'make choices'? We just say we do and/or believe we do - that is all. No evidence. No reason to believe it's anything but physics bouncing about and we're simply biological, a lot more complex and aware. We're still governed by physics bouncing about whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not. I know of no evidence of the contrary.
EvF
Now if we live in an INdeterministic universe (and I don't really know much on the subject but I've heard both from Adrian and others that Quantum Mechanics supports INdeterminism so I'd say AT LEAST when it comes down to it I believe that we do indeed live in an INdeterministic one unless I know of any contradictory evidence....
..Anyway - In an INdeterministic universe it's more like normal UNrigged dice I assume. Because there is evidence that Indeterminism means more possibilites and it's really all a matter of probability but as far as I know there is only evidence that we BELIEVE that we deliberately choose or influence those possibilities not that we actually DO - and the belief in and of itself is not remotely evidence. How could it be?
And do random UNrigged dice simply with more possibilites have any more 'free will' than rigged dice that are determined to fall on one specific number, to go one specific way? No.
And as far as I know we're simply EXTREMELY complex compared to dice, we are biological and we think we are alive and we often BELIEVE we 'make choices' - but I know of no evidence that we actually do. We just believe we do.
So no, - I do NOT think there are assumptions on both sides. I (at least until I hear a counter argument) think that the argument is firmly strong in favour of NO 'free will'.
As far as I know 'free will' is no more likely with INdeterminism than determinism - other than simply the fact that INdeterminism perhaps opens the mere possibility for 'free will'.
I still know of no evidence either way or any more reason to to think 'free will' is probable. How on earth would it work anyway??
Where is the evidence that we 'make choices' other than simply we BELIEVE we do and we 'CALL it that.' As far as I know we are just very complicated biological machines. And the fact we simply BELIEVE we have 'free will', as I said, is not remotely evidence that we DO.
EvF
(May 21, 2009 at 4:29 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Granted I'd agree that nobody knows if free will exists, but since it seems to, and there are various scientists who attempt to explain it (Dan Dennett is one of them) then I don't see why I should disagree with them.
I guess I thought Dennett made a good argument in "Freedom evolves".
I support Dennett...I believe he backs up my argument?
BECAUSE - he isn't defining free will as most do...he defines 'free will' as evitability!
BECAUSE - basically EVERYONE believes in evitability! We do AVOID things we are EVITABLE whether we have free will or not! That's obvious! As Dennett says...if someone chucks a brick at you - you can duck! That's evitabiltiy. Avoidability. That's OBVIOUS! With or without the USUAL definition of 'free will' being true or not.
We as humans have more avoidability....DUH...we have a lot of freedom - we can go to the MOON for Christs sake!
But is there any evidence that we actually have 'free will' in the NORMAL sense it is used....IOW that we can actually make choices freely?
Our choices are part of physics...yes we have freedom in the sense of EVITABILITY - but whether we can CHOOSE things or not is just an illusion IMO.
We CALL it making choices....a lot of us (myself not included) BELIEVE we have a choice - but is that remote evidence that we do other than we BELIEVE we do and we simply CALL it that? No.
Normal, random UNrigged dice have more freedom and evitability than rigged dice. But do they have any more choice in the matter of how we are thrown? No evidence for that!!
Just as with determinism and INdeterminism. Determinism implies that the future is rigged...with INdeterminism it's not...it's uncertain - but is there any evidence that IT can choose it's path or that We are any different and that WE can CHOOSE our path? When our CHOICES are part of this indetermined, uncertain physics bouncing about too?
We have thoughts....we have choices...but can we choose our thoughts or choices? I know of no evidence of this...
It's physics. Any evidence we can override it? I think not.
Belief in 'choice' is not evidence of the truth of it. We may CALL it 'making choices' but that is not remotely evidence that we actually DO make choices...we just CALL IT that.
Do we really have any choice in the matter just because we believe we do and have awareness? I think not.
We have freedom and evitability. But we are entirely bound by physics. We are part of it - this is a physical universe. Where is the evidence that we actually 'make choices'? We just say we do and/or believe we do - that is all. No evidence. No reason to believe it's anything but physics bouncing about and we're simply biological, a lot more complex and aware. We're still governed by physics bouncing about whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not. I know of no evidence of the contrary.
EvF
