First order logic, set theory and God

[dr0n3]

    DeistPaladin

    I won't be tossing anything aside for your benefit. Instead, I'll remind you that you have, at best, philosophical arguments to prove the extraordinary claim that there is a god, that this One True God is Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet. 

    The caliber of evidence needed to meet that burden would be something along the lines of miracles performed under peer review, magical artifacts that can be examined by science or supernatural beings testifying before a live audience. You haven't done this. You can't do this. If religions had such evidence, they would not require faith. 

    Faith, of course, is believing impossible nonsense with no evidence and defending these beliefs against all evidence. 

    You have failed to meet your burden of proof. Take your junk philosophy and verbal snake oil to someplace where it will matter, to wavering Muslims of weak faith that need some reassurance they haven't been conned by religion.

Along with that nonsensical vague statement of yours, I will also ask you to dispose of those red herrings in the trash can. As stated in the OP, you were asked to provide a well-thought-out counterargument to hatcher's proof and point out any inconsistencies therein, which, by the nature of your post, you've miserably failed to do so. Without that, all your self-aggrandizing drivel is just that, meaningless hogwash. If you're not satisfied with the evidence, you can either leave, or engage in a meaningful and fruitful dialogue. As for the caliber of evidence you require, you won't have it - and if that's an issue for you, well you can always shove your right hand where the sun doesn't shine and find your god up there.

    Rahn127

   

WOW !!!    

    Biochemical processes and whatnot - Will I find that when i do a google search on the formation of ice ?

    The answer i was looking for was a loss of potential energy. The molecules slow down. As they do, they form hexagonal patterns and move a little further apart.
    But what caused the molecules to slow down ? The water itself didn't cause the molecules to slow down. The environment itself got colder.
    The environment changed. The loss of energy in the environment was the cause. That loss of energy affected the water, causing the molecules to slow down.

    I could make a puppet show and put it on youtube if it would helpful.

So essentially, all you did was provide a more detailed explanation of how ice is formed, all the while concurring with the core of my argument.

Your input is much appreciated.

Mathilda

    Why would I be reducing the very nature of reality to your god's existence when I know that your god does not exist?

    You are the one arguing for a first cause with that first cause being your imaginary, undefinable being. That defines reality. You are the one saying that magic is involved. You don't call it magic of course but that's exactly what it must be. Some form of power that is undefinable and unexplainable and impossible. Ergo magic.

    There is no god. Your logic means nothing. Garbage in garbage out.

I'm pretty sure you don't need to believe in a god to understand that you've been grasping at straws. The mistake you've been doing the whole time and keep on doing until now, is the vain attempt at distorting my argument and position it in a way that "the nature of reality" somehow equates to "God's existence", and on that basis going off by arguing that reality is more than simply establishing God's existence.


"Your imaginary, undefinable that defines reality".

That bit of yours, is precisely what I'm talking about. Classical example of a straw man.

    Hatcher's so-called proof is meaningless twaddle.

Yes, for someone who's bereft of philosophical and metaphysical knowledge - it's somewhat understandable to consider it as "meaningless twaddle".

However, I do sympathize with your situation and I wholeheartedly believe that there is nothing more rewarding than one who goes out of their way to make
a difference in someone's life.

I present to you -  Logic For Dummies

    Do you know what extrapolating means? Because it doesn't mean what you seem to be saying it means. I was not extrapolating your so called proof. I am saying that your argument from logic is inadequate because there is so much that is relevant that it is missing out on.

Extrapolating wasn't the proper term, indeed. I'll take it back.

Either way, it doesn't excuse you from intentionally directing the argument from the initial topic to other irrelevant topics such as laws of thermodynamics, continuum/discreteness,ect..., which you have probably noticed by now, are outside the scope of Hatcher's proof. 

    We know that the laws of thermodynamics exist and is the basis for the complexity we see in the universe, yet you completely ignore them

I ignored them because Hatcher's proof wasn't trying to establish the universe's complexity. It was trying to establish the origin of the universe. Not the complexity. The origin.


Let me repeat that for you - The proof wasn't attempting to establish the complexity, but rather the ORIGIN of the universe.

Do you understand or do I need to repeat myself one more time ? I hope not.

    So in other words you have no idea what it is. Like the concept of a god, the way you use the concept of causality is equally nebulous and badly defined.

Yes, that is correct.

I have absolutely no idea what causality is - and as a matter of fact, the audience and I, are desperately waiting to be blessed with your enlightened knowledge.

    Jörmungandr

Meh.  I've grown quickly bored with this clown when all he knows how to do is insult and lie.  Not worth my time, but I may still occasionally indulge in poking the bear.

I admire your tenacity of making yourself relevant again after being chucked out. However, I despise more than anything, that hypocrisy you seem to display so shamelessly.

I'll let the audience decide on that one. Hypocrite.

    Jörmungandr

No, I wouldn't have.  The existence of a fallacy indicates that your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.  That's how logic works, dumbass.  I could have pointed out other errors, but there was no need to do so having established the one.  A point that apparently sailed over your head.

    Are you really this stupid?