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First order logic, set theory and God
RE: First order logic, set theory and God
The OP admits that this only proves a first cause of some sort. It doesn't prove a supernatural God. He just chooses to call that first cause "God" even though it could perfectly be naturalistic, nothing more.

That said, it's a strange argument to allow the first cause to be a component of the thing it eventually causes. And this is still relying on naive and outdated notions of time and causality. The OP fails to consider the implications of modern cosmology regarding these notions and others.
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Messages In This Thread
First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 26, 2018 at 10:47 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by ignoramus - November 26, 2018 at 10:55 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Minimalist - November 26, 2018 at 10:56 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 26, 2018 at 10:58 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Minimalist - November 26, 2018 at 11:03 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 26, 2018 at 11:25 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by ignoramus - November 26, 2018 at 11:03 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 4, 2018 at 3:45 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 4, 2018 at 4:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 4, 2018 at 7:53 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Minimalist - November 26, 2018 at 11:04 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by brewer - November 26, 2018 at 11:34 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 27, 2018 at 12:05 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by brewer - November 27, 2018 at 8:57 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 27, 2018 at 9:03 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - November 27, 2018 at 12:46 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Fireball - November 26, 2018 at 11:46 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Minimalist - November 26, 2018 at 11:47 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - November 27, 2018 at 12:24 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by LostLocke - November 27, 2018 at 12:41 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Nay_Sayer - November 27, 2018 at 1:21 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Astreja - November 27, 2018 at 1:58 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 27, 2018 at 4:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 27, 2018 at 5:51 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - November 27, 2018 at 8:39 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cod - November 27, 2018 at 8:49 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - November 27, 2018 at 2:39 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cod - November 27, 2018 at 5:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - November 28, 2018 at 4:52 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cod - November 28, 2018 at 5:52 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by no one - November 27, 2018 at 8:50 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Brian37 - November 27, 2018 at 9:19 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 27, 2018 at 10:00 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Mister Agenda - November 27, 2018 at 11:33 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 27, 2018 at 11:37 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - November 27, 2018 at 12:05 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Minimalist - November 27, 2018 at 12:06 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by ignoramus - November 27, 2018 at 7:08 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Mr.Obvious - November 27, 2018 at 12:33 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - November 27, 2018 at 12:42 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by YahwehIsTheWay - November 27, 2018 at 1:07 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Reltzik - November 27, 2018 at 2:35 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 28, 2018 at 1:03 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - November 28, 2018 at 1:58 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - November 28, 2018 at 8:01 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - November 28, 2018 at 8:27 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - December 1, 2018 at 6:46 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 1, 2018 at 7:03 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - December 2, 2018 at 7:13 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 2, 2018 at 7:30 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Reltzik - November 28, 2018 at 4:21 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 28, 2018 at 5:50 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - November 28, 2018 at 6:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 28, 2018 at 6:46 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - November 28, 2018 at 7:13 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - November 28, 2018 at 7:35 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - November 28, 2018 at 8:39 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - November 30, 2018 at 2:19 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by I_am_not_mafia - November 30, 2018 at 9:10 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - November 30, 2018 at 9:30 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 2:31 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 3:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 2, 2018 at 4:42 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 6:52 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 7:00 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 7:39 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - December 3, 2018 at 3:16 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 3, 2018 at 3:38 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by brewer - December 3, 2018 at 6:49 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 3:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by LastPoet - November 27, 2018 at 3:26 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - November 27, 2018 at 11:52 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by ignoramus - November 28, 2018 at 12:44 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - November 29, 2018 at 9:06 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - November 30, 2018 at 7:59 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 4:21 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 2, 2018 at 4:27 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 4:51 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 2, 2018 at 10:29 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by brewer - November 30, 2018 at 8:21 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Paleophyte - December 1, 2018 at 11:05 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 2, 2018 at 1:55 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Paleophyte - December 2, 2018 at 2:59 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 2, 2018 at 3:39 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Paleophyte - December 2, 2018 at 1:40 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 2:01 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 2, 2018 at 3:28 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by LastPoet - December 2, 2018 at 4:23 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 2, 2018 at 4:30 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 2, 2018 at 7:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 8:45 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 2, 2018 at 9:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 9:25 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 2, 2018 at 9:54 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 9:33 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 2, 2018 at 9:35 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 2, 2018 at 9:50 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 2, 2018 at 10:27 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 10:45 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by tackattack - December 2, 2018 at 9:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 2, 2018 at 9:59 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 2, 2018 at 11:12 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 3, 2018 at 6:00 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 3, 2018 at 7:22 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 4, 2018 at 12:53 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 4, 2018 at 1:12 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 4, 2018 at 9:29 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 4, 2018 at 10:49 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Fake Messiah - December 4, 2018 at 2:33 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 4, 2018 at 3:55 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Fake Messiah - December 4, 2018 at 8:09 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 4, 2018 at 8:29 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Fake Messiah - December 4, 2018 at 9:10 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 4, 2018 at 7:14 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 4, 2018 at 11:57 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 4, 2018 at 2:32 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 4, 2018 at 5:37 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by downbeatplumb - December 4, 2018 at 3:43 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 4, 2018 at 4:07 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 4, 2018 at 9:34 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 4, 2018 at 9:42 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 4, 2018 at 5:14 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 4, 2018 at 5:42 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 4, 2018 at 5:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 4, 2018 at 10:41 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 4, 2018 at 10:58 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 4, 2018 at 11:26 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 5, 2018 at 1:21 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 5, 2018 at 2:00 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 5, 2018 at 2:35 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 7, 2018 at 6:33 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 7, 2018 at 8:14 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 8:17 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 7, 2018 at 9:36 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 9:49 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 7, 2018 at 9:54 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 10:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 7, 2018 at 11:30 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 11:55 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 8, 2018 at 5:55 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 6:19 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 8, 2018 at 10:17 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 8, 2018 at 10:28 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 10:47 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 8, 2018 at 11:19 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Bucky Ball - December 8, 2018 at 10:41 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 5, 2018 at 6:57 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 5, 2018 at 7:26 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 5, 2018 at 8:58 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2018 at 7:25 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 5, 2018 at 7:54 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 5, 2018 at 8:11 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 5, 2018 at 9:04 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2018 at 10:06 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 3:10 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 4:19 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 4:33 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 4:36 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 4:49 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 5:01 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 6, 2018 at 7:54 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 12:58 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 5, 2018 at 8:37 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 5, 2018 at 10:53 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by ignoramus - December 5, 2018 at 8:57 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 5, 2018 at 8:36 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by dr0n3 - December 6, 2018 at 11:12 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 7, 2018 at 8:11 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 7, 2018 at 8:55 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 7, 2018 at 10:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 5, 2018 at 11:14 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 6, 2018 at 12:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 1:23 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 3:55 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 3:59 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 4:23 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 10:04 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - December 6, 2018 at 5:28 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 6:03 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Pat Mustard - December 7, 2018 at 4:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 4:38 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by unfogged - December 7, 2018 at 5:30 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 6:08 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 4:50 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 6:08 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 6:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 6:32 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 10:04 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 6:33 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 6:46 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 7:26 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 6:50 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 7:22 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 8:07 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 9:24 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 6:25 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 6:33 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 6:52 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 7:08 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 7:10 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 6, 2018 at 7:13 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Belacqua - December 6, 2018 at 7:19 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by DeistPaladin - December 7, 2018 at 2:13 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 7, 2018 at 3:51 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 7:19 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Grandizer - December 6, 2018 at 7:27 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 10:07 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Rahn127 - December 6, 2018 at 10:17 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 6, 2018 at 10:54 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 6, 2018 at 12:34 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by brewer - December 7, 2018 at 6:15 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 11:30 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 12:04 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 12:16 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 12:21 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by LastPoet - December 8, 2018 at 1:21 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 12:34 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 12:37 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 12:45 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 1:21 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 1:26 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 1:48 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 1:56 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 3:03 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 7:28 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 7:49 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 7:53 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 8:39 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 8, 2018 at 9:00 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 9:21 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 8, 2018 at 11:08 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 8, 2018 at 11:25 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 8, 2018 at 11:31 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 9, 2018 at 12:36 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 9, 2018 at 3:34 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 9, 2018 at 4:38 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 9, 2018 at 4:48 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Amarok - December 9, 2018 at 4:56 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 9, 2018 at 9:13 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cepheus Ace - December 9, 2018 at 11:34 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 9, 2018 at 12:42 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 9, 2018 at 12:59 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 9, 2018 at 1:36 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 9, 2018 at 10:33 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 10, 2018 at 1:48 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cepheus Ace - December 10, 2018 at 4:11 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 10, 2018 at 7:59 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cepheus Ace - December 10, 2018 at 12:14 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Cepheus Ace - December 10, 2018 at 12:18 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 10, 2018 at 2:03 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by downbeatplumb - December 10, 2018 at 2:17 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 10, 2018 at 2:51 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 10, 2018 at 3:23 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 10, 2018 at 3:51 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 11, 2018 at 9:04 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 11, 2018 at 11:35 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by polymath257 - December 10, 2018 at 2:41 pm
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 10, 2018 at 3:20 am
RE: First order logic, set theory and God - by Angrboda - December 10, 2018 at 8:15 am

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