(December 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm)Scientia Wrote: Hello,
I'm a chemist irl and work in a research center. I've always been very curious and inquisitive and even though I grew up in a christian family, it didn't take long for me to discard any belief in general.
I'd classify myself as an agnostic, since I don't really have proof for the non-existence of some "creator", but my views are very close to those of an atheist. I have a nihilistic view of the world and life, in my view there is no good/evil, there are just a bunch of things that move. I found myself often discussing religion with believers, be it christians or muslims, but every time we hit a wall. There is just one thing that I, as a scientist, can't accept: believe something without proof.
No matter how nice and detailed and passionate one religion can be, it's still a book written by another person like me that, for all I know, could have been a troll. The main argument of these people is always the same: "How do you explain this and that? You can't, so it must be because of God, as it's written in this book".
This is non-sense and just bad practice in the research world, as it's not my duty to prove its non-existence: it's their duty to prove its existence. When writing a research paper or defending my doctoral thesis, I was being questioned for the smallest things like "how can you say for sure that you found that crystalline phase in this solid? From XRD I only see peaks relative to this and that phase, so you are speculating a bit", so how can I let pass something huge like "I can't explain it, so it must be God's work" as a proof of god's existence?
I tried discussing religion with a seemingly chill muslim who looked very quiet and available when I was asking him about islam, but when I started questioning his point, stating that what he presented wasn't enough proof, he started getting irritated and annoyed, since according to him I should have already been converted by his speech. His argument was:
"The quran describes scientific facts in detail and it's the word of Allah. So what other proof do you need to believe in islam?"
However from my experience, any chemistry of physics book does the same thing without claiming it to be the word of god. According to his reasoning, then any scientist could claim godhood by stating "This phenomenon happens because of this, I dare you to prove it wrong. Yeah you can't, I'm god."
At this point he just got mad and started saying I'll go to hell. When I suggested that the world could have as well been created by an alien or giant uncaring monstrosity, he said "Com'on, that's absurd", as if magic wizard Allah was any less absurd.
Most of these religions are sketchy and superficial and fail to address many points (eg, how are animals or plants judged? And what about cavemen that didn't know how to speak and communicate and just hit things with their club? And what about people who are born in such conditions where knowledge is kept hidden to them? What about people who are born physically or mentally ill and can't really help themselves? What about those who are forced to behave in some way? If we really must assume there is a creator, then I'd picture it as some neutral and uncaring entity that wanders in the universe. No hell or heaven, just something that spawns life here and there and moves on).
So my question is: how do you engage in a discussion with these people without it derailing? It's as if they were willfully ignoring or filtering some information, I don't really get it. I'm not really trying to convert them, but rather trying to understand the reasoning that leads them to believe in whatever religion... but no matter how hard I try to understand, their logic is just not in order. Sometimes I'm literally asking them to help me believe in their religion, but every time it's just not enough information to warrant any belief.
Here's the thing I found (I started as a atheist seeking the truth no matter where it woud lead me.) and it took me through several religious expressions of the more or less same TYPE of faith. First and foremost... despite what you think about the superority of your ablity to reason over theirs.. People are not in general as stupid as you would have them to believe. While most may not be able to articulate their faith, there is a literal driving force behind all religions. There is something in each expression of faith that sustains a believers faith. Now I have found that soceity play a big role in many faiths. however it is oftentimes the case when that soceity fails so too go their God's as it was soceity making good on the promises of their gods. so when the soceital structure could no longer support their beliefs, and keep the promises of their God. soceity moves on to a different system of belief.
So I've found their to be 4 major types of 'religious fuel' things that support religion.
society being the big one but is often telling by the rise and fall of civilization (rome greece egypt all good examples)
self perpetuating philosophy is another these apply to more zen or spiritual based religions where one simply needs the correct programming or cultural inputs to interpret natural occurring cause and effect to be apart of full filling the promises and wisdom of the religion. Buddhism to a degree shintoism and to a lessor degree even hinduism
now we move into religions that span society and philosophy and move into a moral power base that puts one group incharge over another. here the religious hierarchy/the religious leadership becomes their god. WWII japan, North korea and down to more mordern examples like mormonism and scientology
Next we have the supernatural Whether it genuinely be God or a demonic influence people see and recognise there is a power beyond this world beyond our full understanding and they see it at work. to discern whether it be God or demonic in nature will be fleshed out in the commands the deity gives and or the promises for full filling those commands.
The big three religions fall into this category as these religions have span time despite society's influence, dictatorish rule religious philosophy and even a move to 'grow past deity.'/the rise of the newest faith/religious belief system... science.
What you may not understand is that on either side of one of these three religion is a super natural presence or power that affects enough people to maintain a faith for well over 4000 years collectively. Again you do not have the market n intellegence cornered here. people who work as chemists or engineers aren't the only cognisant people on the planet. The reason people believe after so long is because even n modern times the promises of said religion are being kept.
Now that said if you want to look at all the religions to see what the followers are being promised we can and I can show you how these are more or less self full filling except when it comes to islam and Christianity. where as islam demand more or less total obedience to the end goal of total world domination (literally) and to anyone who would die in this goal instant entrance to the after life and all the plunder and perversions that are forbidden in this world. God in this life has little to nothing to do with the common man, but supposedly speaks to the leadership through an angel.. (satan and his demons where angels) again look at the end goal of the religion and what is promised to the believer to decide who they worship.
With christianity bible based christianity any way we are promised direct access to God. no preists no go betweens just you and God not in the next life but here and now. what are his demands? cast off sin/meaning not sin no more but do not love or seek to embrace sin. seek forgiveness through christ and ask seek and knock for the holy Spirit, the over time learn to love God with all of your being and your neighbor as yourself. In those two rules all of christian is defined. the measure of God promised to all of us, and you will have access to the God of the bible.
Now there are many variations of christianity and whatever floats you boat will work so long as they all share the base principles I laid out. why? because if there is forgiveness when we openly sin there is a ton more available when we are worshiping God with all of our heart mind spirit and strength and simply get something wrong. Paul puts it this way; we are all members of the same body, but we are different parts meaning we see things differently we function differently and thus we will have different ways to express a total love. for instance a hand may offer to build to repair to write something as an expression a total love. while a foot may take yout to a place or away from danger or sin or it may kick someone's ass as a total expression of love which is wrong? which is right? they are doing two totally different things yet because of the grace we have been extended each is judged on it's own crb rather than to arbitrary line in the sand. which make biblical christianity different than all other forms of religion. while yes if you love God you will keep his commands, but at the same time we are not tied to a 'morality' like all other religions.
Nw it is through this freedom that I myself cashed in on the big promise of direct contact with God. and I am an engineer. so it was with a dissecting eye did I approach God in the beginning and I saw the pattern from which he worked with me to the point I could anticipate what would happen next (trial, blessing test reward.) To the point where he began to simply open doors for me and in faith I would sometimes be required to give up or risk everything on what would seem like a crazy deal to most but to me I knew it to be a door God opened. This is not a one two or ten time thing. these things happened repeatedly over 25 years, 18 or 19 of that in business for my self with a loan from a complete stranger/someone I have met once in passing/didn't even know his name. To a company who has a nation customer base two locations and looking to open a dealership outside this country if the opportunities keep presenting themselves.
Again people are not stupid even if they can not observe what powers their system of belief they know it is being supported by some force and that force full fills the promises of that specific religion.
That is why people believe. Some sell themselves short in their beliefs cashing out in this life with small promises to the next with no way to vet (buddhism provides a tranquil society and pleasant living system that supports it's base before a time where the government took that role. EG. cashing out the benefits in this life.)
While others hedge their bets with a religion that will allow them to indulge their most depraved desires by casting out the infidels and in the next be more greatly blessed with all manor of sexual exploits. Islam allows those who feel a pride or need to force everyone under them to break the world as it is and remake it into a place that serves the hierarchy of this religion.
While most christian denominations only focus on eternal life. God promises in the bible a relationship in this life and a better one in the next if you can learn to submit and work with him. in this life I have taken him up on this offer and in almost 20 years of working for him his abundant blessings have yet to stop. again All tayloried to me and my specific life. which is what he offers to each and every individual who will simply seek him out on his terms found in scripture.
While almost all churches can deliver salvation.. a relationship with God in this life and the next takes strict obedience at first to find and work with the holy Spirit. Any church can get you to heaven, but there are different level/jobs in heaven. You don't want to be the heavenly equivalent of a homeless person. That is why as soon as you are saved you want to move on to finding the Holy Spirit. Once you do Jesus said he will move mountains of doubt in your mind he will give you everything you specifically need to establish and maintain your belief. all you need do is be faithful with the truth he gives you and you follow it through
