How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

@ Drich
The first part of your post has a logic and I can agree to a certain degree. I did have confirmation from some honest believer who admitted that he'd rather believe there was some nice afterlife for good people than accept that all the wrongs he endured in life would have no effect or consequence afterwards.

it is funny to me that most people will acknowledge the 'thought and observation put into the first 1/2' but discard the idea that the same objectivity went into the second half just because I did not come to the same conclusion as you did. To you.. it is impossible That I found something you didn't..

So religion chosen as a way to justify the injustice of life, a way to feel somehow rewarded and not feel guilt. A longing for feeling loved, wanted, rewarded, justified, glorified. 

To whom do you speak that religion filled these roles? these seem like trivial cursory observation leading to the idea that people are generally stupid and they seek anything to pacify the above mention needs.. If you did read my first 1/2 you will note I argue the opposite. the above mention while are indeed on some people radar the vast majority are not stupid and do indeed seek the truth otherwise we would not have religion ever die. because the above mention are all things can be self full filling meaning no real outside influences are needed to feel any one of those things. Again understand people believe in religion because something whether it be fellow man government society demons or God fuels external fulfillment in one way or another.. The religion full fill it's promises, or it is doomed to die!

It is foolish to think your fellow man just overly needy and can't discern truth. Granted most religious promises are based around what whatever fuels the religion. meaning if society is the religious fuel then by society's over all involvement the promises of said religion are generally kept. and so on. However when it comes to things like direct contact with God few would argue that society has the power to manifest such a promise. That is the case with Christianity. Direct contact with God is the reward of the faithful.

But that's not the same as researching the truth.

because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

And the truth may as well be that indeed nothing really matters. I do understand that some people find refuge in religion due to their impossibility to live aimlessly or without a truth or superior goal to work towards to, and so they cling to whatever claimed truth they find. But I want to stay positive and think that not everyone is like that.

Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.


Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.

About the second half of your post however, that's very subjective and sounds more like a way to justify(and why should you?) a success here and there in life.

Because you  have no idea what my life was, before hand. I was the polar opposite.

The thing is, I've had relatively nice success in life and career and health so far. I won many prizes for my age in my field, never had any serious illness (never went to the hospital in the past 23y), never had anything very wrong going on in my life. I would consider myself lucky since I was born in a decent family that gave me an education, but I also have my merits because I worked hard towards my goals and never gave up. My determination rewarded me, not some weird entity. 

and do you think you could have earn the very same thing/earned the same position you had in life if say you could not read? what if basic math alluded you? then find God and it is like someone turn on a switch, and you go from a forrest gump floor sweep to a mechanic to a business owner to a franchised business owner to a engineer to a patent holder who's sold their work to a big company, and took what was made and double down the the business into nationally recognized business (in my field of course).. Did I also mention I have always spent the vast majority of my time studying the bible and answering questions here? that deals simply drop into our lap. we do not market we do not advertise beyond a single car trader type of magazine. I have not worked hard/I do not work hard, I have in the past, I have no real business training. And I got started with a 25K loan from a stranger who felt compelled to help me go out on my own, because he said he could see something in me. that I spend the lions share of my time here answering questions? As if the business was given to me to support what I do here and in places like this..

But In parallel, I could also see many other people who were born in even nicer conditions and were overall even "luckier". I always tried to earn things on my own, without asking others for help, but I also saw people getting credit for other people work and never getting any kind of bad consequence out of it. I also saw unlucky people born in violent families and enduring all sorts of wrongdoings and eventually either rise up or fall even lower. Sometimes I would feel annoyed at the former but lucky compared to the latter. In time I just stopped caring.

I was the latter I was born to a korean mother and 1/2 a drunk red neck. who would randomly pull me out of bed by my foot and make me rake the yard at 2AM in the complete dark because it did not 'feel like it had been done.' or wash a car or clean the windows or just to take a beating because of my report card was not good enough (he being a teacher in the same school district and me failing retard classes made him look bad. Should have been there for my 'Reading lessons.' Stuff like that and being molested by a few different people got me to the point where I hated god, so just before high school and all though it even a little after I hated the idea of God and even sought out to beat the shte out of people who brought their bibles to school.

 I was mad at them for believing in a god who would allow me to get beat up everyday by one group of people or another everyday. I fought everyday of my school life till one day I was DDT-ed so hard into the pavement it knocked me out for a few mins, and I did not rat out the white racist who did it. Then I was ok with the whites. beating the christians made me ok with the emo/dracula club. but there were still a few whites and blacks who just rando attacked me.. so I hid most of the day not going to class because they would wait for me. my Ag. teacher had comic books from the 60 and 70 in the back office and he would let me hide out and read them/learn teach myself how to read off the pictures and actions on page. I could read only comic books when I graduated because I could visualize what was being said. then a year or two later I was given my first bible. and it was like someone turning on a light switch. it was the first time I could read without pictures. and for a long time after it was the only thing I could read without pictures. Even now I struggle with spelling and grammar because I am still learning as I go.

What I learnt so far is that nothing really matters. It doesn't matter if you are a horrible person who exploits others, you can still live a nice life and have 0 troubles, just like you can be the kindest and most gentle person, and have all sort of impeding illnesses and die at a young age in agony. There exist all kinds of combinations of situations, I'm one of those combination just like you.

It doesn't matter to you because to you the end result is what you would consider 'good.' I'm not talking about my success found in my business or the patents or the time I send here teaching. My success was defined by my journey. from my beginnings to where I am now, itis the stuff that happened in between.. Me finding out on my honey moon my wife had a 250$ a day heroin addiction and the 7 years we spent in the detox of hell, while at the same time just starting a business all the endless nights of work then paper work then taxes then her stuff. then mix in a Aids scare and a cancer scare (test procedures bone marrow scans the whole nine yards) and through all of that at some point my appendix burst.. but while having the cancer scan they said the appendix had burst some time back and was now dormant. did I mention I had no insurance most of this, and it was just 'taken care of' anonymously. a check just showed up from some fund with a authorization number instead of a signature.

You said that you trusted in god and were rewarded.

no, no.. I trusted in god and followed him way way beyond any help I could get from anyone.. My situation in the beginning was hopeless, literally kicked out of my house at 19 or 20 with a 9 year old younger sister to care for. (Came home one fatherday or maybe it was his brthday) from church and my mom went back to korea for a few months and my dad was home drunk alone eating cabbage and beef in the dark. We turn on the light and handed him a joke fathers day card that said something like 'sorry you missed your father's day steak dinner it was delicious and we brought you back a souvenir which was a tooth picked taped on the inside.

he said Do you think this was funny?? where were you? We were at church so he took his cabbage and beef and threw it at us. He made a nasty comment about the god I served, and we left and made arrangements to sleep at a friend's house for a day or two and then I went home after work to talk to an uncle and on the way was told to buy some drinks (mountain dew and diet coke) so I did pulled into a texico store who's whole parking lot could be seen from the intersection which was good because it was poorly lit. it was empty so I pulled in, and when I open the door and a huge dirty looking black man was well with in my personal space. out of nowhere stood a dirty stained jeans work boots camo style army jacket and a ski mask beanie wraped around a homeless looking big black guy... he said he needed to get home asap because his parole officer was going to call soon and if he wasn't home they would arrest him and put him back in jail. and i remember thinking strike 3, but I said I'm here for drinks my uncle is expecting me, ill be back. I just got paid and I divided my money and put the bulk in one pocket and a few dollars is the right (because no matter what you do for homeless people they always ask for a few dollars.) So I paid for everything and went out ask the guy where he was going he said downtown in the little town i was in (about 5 miles away) I was in a ranchero/el camino pick up truck/car front. and he went to get in the back it was very cold I said you can ride up front, and that is the last think I think I said to him aloud...

He said I'm going to speak fast cause we don't have much time.. I am what you might call a fortune teller. then he proceeded to tell me everything that I was going through he told me how it was all going to be resolved he told me what course to take he told me why me dad was going nuts he told me about my mom in korea he then started with the prayers I had/had been praying currently he told me of prayers I had prayed as a kid and thought no one heard me he told me why i was made to suffer what little i did. He then told me of opportunities i would have them at some point in all of that I thought to myself this guy must be my guardian angel.. he stop smiled shook his head and continued on. He basically laid my whole life out if I simply kept the path I was on. once he finished just past down town he told me to turn into another store/kangeroo and he got out my mind blown he then turn back and asked for a couple of buck "cause you know no matter what you do for homeless folks they always hit you up for a few bucks)

I spun a u-turn and he was gone as fast as he appeared.

I did not follow god and good things happened. I followed god and my life fell apart, and I continued looking for truth and I had to give up everything I owned. (my dad found out i was staying with my uncle (a year or so before this) and he loaded his truck up with everything I owned posters off the wall emptied the drawers bed everying toys mags books games tv everything in one truck load and dumped it on my uncles front lawn.. in the rain by the morning everything was destroyed. what was of value was stolen that was the first tie I was asked to give up everything and follow him.. and kept following till it looked like there was no way back. to the point my uncle was not going to be able to help me this time either (he was going through a divorce during the time my sister and i was on the outs) i was so far out (making 4.00 an hour sweeping floors with a kid sister to feed and school) i did not see any way back.. So God sent someone to show me. I followed the plan and everything he promises has come true.. so far..

and again.. my 'reward' is not the stuff I have.. the business the responsibilities.. that is my job that is what service in the lord looks like. this is the job as a slave of God progresses into ans away from (meaning my tasks will continue to mature as I do spiritually.) they just so happen to look like worldly success and prosperity. Don't get me wrong taking a week off to design your dream home was a very nice 'perk' but I also know how much more quality can be found in life love and family when money is scarce. I see the trade off of a big house where everyone has their own space where as the constant closeness and interactivity a small house and a big family brings. While the big house may be more desirable spiritually it is not 'better for you for a family.'

That's nice for you. Now what about that kid who is born without legs and arms?

says someone who can not imagine a life without freedom of complete moblity. Just because you live with 4 active limbs doesn't mean your total existance will be better...

For instance say there is indeed a god, and your 4 limbs and the freedom they bring fools you into thinking you've earned everything you have thus no God and as a result you miss out on eternal life. Now let say a guy without limbs learns to depend on God for everything. Who's total existence will be better? one who suffers 50 60 years and is born into eternity with a strong relationship with God.. or is it better to live 100 years in complete mobility to wake up to judgement and eternal death?

I know the lazy intellect in you wants to back out and say 'but drich I don't believe in god so I do not have to reconcile this 'what if.' but here's the thing sport.. when you said that's nice for you but what of the kid who was born without... You are presupposing God is real and has blessed me so you demanded an answer for the one who's blessing did not look like a blessing to you.

What about that other kid who is born with down syndrome or is born blind and deaf?

Better enter the kingdom mamed/missing a hand eye or foot than enter hell whole. God is playing the long game not what is good for you now. God's concern is doing what it will take to ensure eternal life. this should be evident by his willingness to sacrifice his son.

Just "bad luck" and let's shrug it off?

Being literally labeled mentally disabled for the 1st half of my life, I can most certainly attest these what you call failings are really blessings. when view through the scope of eternity. Yours is the handicap if what you are given has your life end at the end of your 75 or 80 years. this life is but a vapor here one moment and gone the next. what fool would invest in something so fleeting?

Did they have any chance at any point to trust in god and get the same nice reward you got?

Who says mine is a reward? To me it is a term of service. I sold myself into slavery in order to 'earn' the right to be seen as a son (not salvation as that can not be earned) however our place or status in heaven is. I sever god as a teacher as a business owner as a tool to be used in any way he sees fit. In this life I am first in the next I am promised to be last/ to serve those in whom you look down on now. those who did not have the same opportunities i did. So that one day I might be lifted up as a son.. When you speak you invision only what is directly in front of you. you speak one or maybe two years down the road. I'm establishing roots in the next life.

What about those kids born in countries where war rages?

that would have been my lot as my mother fled from one of those places. but what of it/ Jesus was born and lived in an occupied country.. I know western mind do not think they can function under the rule of another, but trust me it just becomes life. Once can still serve God while living in a place devoid of personal freedom. Not a big deal. the only issue i see here is you no long see service as a reward you see only the work. What I am saying is under God service is it's own reward. meaning you will find contentment no matter what God would have you do despite the envy the secular world may have in your job. And in the end if you are truly happy it does not matter what the circumstance is. God is fulfillment beyond circumstance.

They are taught from infancy to embrace arms and go to war. What about them?

War is your immorality not God's. The bible is full of example of warriors who openly and greatly served God. King David is a great example. Moses while not the typical king or general did indeed lead many campaigns joshua his predecessor again fought many battles. Saul/Paul of the new testament wared against Christ and christianity and God saw him as an asset and turned him. being a fighter does not = unforgivable sin. That is the fake morality of popular culture speaking not God.

What about those kids who are kept in ignorance from birth? 

ever hear of the parable of the talents? I ask this because Christ Himself answers your question.



A talent here in not a skill but a measure of gold that equated to one years average salary. So when God give some one like me many 'talents'/money or skill much more us required of me. if someone born in an area with no knowledge of Christ can be equated to someone with very few talents. therefore less is expected. not nothing as the parable warns just not as much as the person given 5

Christ also say I am the way truth and life no one come to the father but through him which means it is not religion that saves us meaning we do not have a prescribed path persay. that Jesus himself is our judge and it is christ and christ alone that will determine our fate based on what he gave us to work with/opportunities we had.

You had a choice, you chose to believe and supposedly were rewarded. They never had a choice, what about them?

my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

But let's go back in time a bit. What about all those people before christianity?

What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

Let's just forget the past 50.000 years of humanity (300.000 if we consider homo sapiens in general or 15 M years if we consider our ancestors as well)? Let's just swipe them under the carpet and forget they ever happened and let's start anew with the humans of 0 AC?

actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

It's easy when you consider just yourself and your situation. You can fit all that happens in your life with patterns of any book, but try to expand and see how it applies to everyone else. Physical laws work because they are always valid in any circumstance. If they stopped working even once, then that would be a huge hole in the theory and would need to be revisited or it would become invalid.

not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?