How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

To me it is not impossible, but if all you people keep giving me is banther without one ounce of evidence, it remains a tale. A tale as worthy to be believed as that found in a fantasy book. What puzzles me is that you(in general, not you specifically) claim to have found the truth, or god, or name it however you want but when asked how the process works, it is as vague as synthesized anti-matter.

funny how double sided the word evidence can be. on one hand I can say I witnessed you commit a murder and if one or two other little things don't fall your way this is considered to be enough "evidence" for the state to imprison you for the rest of your life. if the crime is heinous enough, this 'evidence' is enough to see you executed. but on a less formal level, say a one on one level eyewitness testimony doesn't see like it counts for anything. why is that? why can you summarily dismiss what the sate in a similar search for truth holds to a premium??? (Eye witness testimony being one of the hardest forms of evidence to over come)

After all, Not like I ask you for money, not like I said "embrace God" or trust in christ or open yourself to him or anything else. I said simple seek the truth and allow it no matter where it leads. again I am advocating objectivity and a logical approach, as what was done for me is indeed offered to everyone.

"Embrace god", "trust in Christ", "open yourself to him", "accept all the shit you are thrown at", etc. None of these can be reproducibly or reliably recognized or detected at all. You can convince yourself it is because of this, but that's just gut feeling. But stating with certainty that you found it and it is as it is, it's rather bold.

and here we go. objectivity out the window and I am classified sa just another religious nut bag for whom you pull a stock response out for. What happened to you objectivity? why the fast move to classify my word and works as just some other religious testimony hitting all the same bases making all the same points? DId you even read anything I said? or did you just skim over thinking I know where he is going? This quote of your doesn't boade well for you taking the time to read what I have said. Seems to me you disqualified all my objectivity because I did not come to the same conclusion you did when you considered all the things "open yourself to him, trust in christ" that I never once asked you to do. Again I took a completely different approach. but that doesn't seem like anything you want to discuss.

No, people are not necessarily stupid, but they may be lazy or just don't want to know.

I'm looking at how you started this post and can observe the truth about people just not wanting to know can be said no matter what you personally believe about God. again look how quick and lazily you dismissed my efforts without addressing anything I personally said.

My uncle is the most erudite person I know and he's christian, but I can see where he stopped.

so do you assume we all must have stopped where he did to have his same beliefs?

He doesn't question his religion/god anymore.

I can show you a dozen churches where the same is true I can also show you a dozen schools of 'higher learning' where everything is blindly accepted just because it comes down the right pike. I can also point to hundreds of churches where the questions never stop and schools where the same is true.

What I've told you here is I ran out of question came here and to other webs sites looking for ore bible based questions and God has yet to leave me without a bible based answer. Heck we even reconciled the whole of evolution in a 7 day creation, and not one of you in 10 years has been able to a biblical reason nor a scientific one why this would not work...

I asked him why, the reply was "at my age, what's the point of further looking into it? It was the answer I sought and the answer I got.

because for him he found enough truth to sustain what he needs. but again just because your uncle found water at the end of a 10 ft well what in you mind says it will dry up the deeper you go?

You can't really reason it out, at some point you have to make a leap of faith.

The only faith required is that of a mustard seed. Christ Himself says this. if you can muster up the faith that of a mustard seed (one of the smallest tiniest seeds) God will Move mountains of doubt that stand before you. Think doubting thomas. He was not admonished for demanding to put his hands in the wounds of Christ, but rather Christ wounds and all made himself available to him. In short all thomas had to do is seek christ on his terms. (He had to be at a certain place at a given time) All we need do is Ask Seek and knock for the Holy Spirit.

You are too annoying and inquisitive to make that leap, but it won't really matter at the end, you are a good guy". He's old now, life was different at his time, but the main difference between us is that I keep researching and investigating while he stopped at the first assumed truth. It may be the actual truth in the end, but how do you know already at this point in time without further research?

Maybe he stopped looking when he got to put his hands in the wounds of christ, and for him that was enough. God promises to give us the evidence we need to start and maintain a current one on one relationship. If God gave you what you needed to believe without doubt at 10 and maintained you with all the contact and reassurance you need now would you still doubt? by definition no. What makes you think You uncle did not find the very God who alludes you? why can't you uncle be in a more eternally fortunate place than you? why doesn't he deserve God favor over you? Seriously? do smart people somehow have a lock on what is and is not eternal? is it not possible your lowly simply uncle be right and you be wrong? why is his contentment so offensive?

Also, you talk about direct contact with God. Perhaps it would be useful for you to read my answers to Godscreated, as they cover this. I'll copypaste some line to save you time:

How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up?

I went a different route. I hated God. I grew up bad and wanted to beat the shite out of christians and further more wanted to spit in his eye..
I demanded an audience and wanted to know the truth and demands he answer for me lot in life. I was to judge him! So he gave me the shot. I went to sleep and 'woke up' at my judgement. me and a few others shoulder to shoulder, once i figured who this guy was I hit the ground face first. He got to the guy next to me and heard him say well done my good and faithful servant you may enter my father rest.. Then me I was stood up and looked into his eye for but a moment and felt love beyond description I felt complete and understood everything for a moment then was ripped out of that when he looked at me he said away from me i never knew you, then was cast i the void... I learn what hell fire was (it's not fire it is the eotioal response of a being being consumed by the eptiness of creation it is like black tar/being disolved slowly and the panic and primal fear of being consumed.. I found out what gnashing of teeth was and why it is such a miserable thing, I also fond out the devil and his angels do not run hell, they like us are being punished. all of this before I had any clue as to what the bible actually said. I always though hell was lke the dante's inferno had described...

After a few moments the real panic or reality of eternity began to snk in and me trying to contemplate what an eternity of this level 11 out of 10 madness would be like, and what's worse the truth was now know to me, and how much more sad my situation now that I knew the truth, and the wonder only if I knew it with time left on my clock would I be any different.. that was all too much and I felt my self being consumed.. IE what made me me my sanity was leaving me and what was going to be left was this animalistic husk who I thought would also be devoured by the hell fire given enough time.. just as the last light of creation was gone I felt like I was being pulled out of hell. Then was told I but visited the gates and not to waist this chance I was given.

Before I knew anything of God I knew of a moment of his love that will make me yearn to return to it for as along as I live, and I know Hell Not as something to fear or push people away from as hell for some is better than service in heaven. So I am not here to save anyone from hell but to offer the truth of it and God as He gives me utterance.

Then later as I was growing in the Spirit a "messenger" was sent to me. He basically laid out my whole future. then hundreds if not thousands of little nudges and directions.. a few visions of both spiritual and non spiritual happenings (one instance lead to two patents and a buy out from a major company) and spiritual guidance that has help me and many many other people.

I've already tried that and nothing happened.

Again the parable of the wise and foolish builders. The first 1/2 of my life I sought my God my way, and as a result my idea of God never came to save me because my idea of god was not real. Real God demands you meet him on His terms. If you can do this he will move heaven and earth for you.

Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either.

God and religion have nothing to do with one or another. All religions are double edged swords they help one to the core materials needed but also cut a path to have one first serve the religion then God. When in fact we do not need 'religion.' EI beads creeds bear, oh my!

Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

Now let pretend that god after doing things your way did show up... Now who in your mind would you be serving? the God of the bible or would you rather be the master of a genie and a magic lamp? If you can command God to show up by rubbing a lamp or shouting a verse or encantation then who is the servant and who is the master?

Now what if, just play along what if God demanded to be the master and you a servant? would he then reward his servant when ever the servant demanded the master show up?

Let's say you worked for the queen or trump or obama or whatever world leader tickles you fancy, and you demand that wrld leader show up friday nigh so he can watch you kids while you go out... Would obama show up? would the queen show up? would anyoe show up? why?

Then why in the Hell would you expact the master and commander of the universe to show up and do tricks for you?

Can you see how that verion of God is your specific god and when you tested him he did not show up because he was not real. And the real God has no obligation to show up because he is way way to good for your BS (or whatever the reason obama will not get his ass over to your house everytime you text...) But again what if you served the obama white house and you where doing the job he has placed you in.. could you then expect to interact and even be awarded by him?

God is the God of the OT. God is the God of power God is not a circus clown who will do trick when summoned. God doesnot trade good deeds for granted wishes. These are examples of building your house on sand and when tested the house will fall. your god was tested and because it was not based in truth your god when tested failed.

If the bible is an instruction book, then it's badly written. Everything can be interpreted in many ways, it's more like a puzzle with no solution (or many solutions).

There are two rules and one direct command for us. God has hidden these in plain site for all who will simply ask, seek and knock.

3) because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

As above.

In turn, as above.

4) Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.
Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.
rosery beads=/= objective religious experience. I'm sorry but that is not even a biblical thing... yet you demand full access to the God of the bible?!?!

Come on seriously?!?

When ever does a half measure yield a full finite result?

Don't put words in my mouth. I am asking you of the reasons(evidence) that make you so certain and confident that what's written in this book is the truth, and you fail to deliver this reason/evidence.

Actually I did not I gave you full eyewitness testimony, and what's yet promised you'd be eligible for the same type of treatment if you would just honest pursue where ever God leads. This would be no different than me telling as a stranger on the street there is a guy one block over wearing a batman outfit giving out 100$ bills if you provide him with two different color joker playing cards. Now I can show you the money he gave me or I can till you what I spent it on, but the actual proof is in you providing what was required and receiving your own money... I can't give you the 100$ bill I was given as this in of itself is not proof. "science" is the wrong tool for evendairy exploration. Where the truth can be determined is in someone going up to bat man and following his instructions. if you get you 100$ bill then you know it is true. Looking for scientific data where none can be gather is not smart it is a fools errand. why seek to follow a procedure not intended for this type of discernment? you are forcing a round peg into a square hole and proclaiming there is no evidence, when there is, just not what you demand. This is what I mean by following the evidence no matter where it goes. Stop demanding God meet you on your term stop trying to put god in the little box of science. If god could be encapsulated in the little box of science God would not be infinite/god. Science would then be God. which is why 'you types' hide behind science as you or one of you knows God will never be found there serving you.

If you asked me "what makes you so confident that the gravitational constant is 9.81 m/s2?" then I would tell you that I made an experiment throwing an object and its motion behaved according to that number.

but you are not asking for a constant. you are asking for an infinite unknowable lest you follow a specific given formula, but refuse to follow said formula. You demand God make himself constant so you wrap your little head around him/science can understand and or manipulate him. Again why would the master ever serve? Why would the infinite be finite on your terms?

The reason we hide from God in science is because if science ever discovers God we then become the master and do not have to serve. So then why would God seek this group of people out and go above and beyond for them?

No, of course I wouldn't have if I were blind. But then it wouldn't be me. What switch are you talking about? What you are saying sounds like "if you believe in god, then you'll manage to surpass your limits". Are you saying that embracing god is enough to trigger some "miracle" in life? That perhaps someone without legs will be able to levitate if he believes in god? 

sure why not? I can levitate a person with a series of magnates, if magnates are within my grasp then why would you assume they would be off limits for the God who created them? wow what limited thinking you have. why in you world would God be excluded from using anything man knows or understand by science? Think about it if you were to create... everything would you create it in such a way that you must move through your creation supernaturally? or would you create creation in such a way as to naturally comply with your ability? meaning why in your world would God be excluded from using the things you can use? why can't god use technology? why can't god be a being who uses medicine what primitive 'forward thinker' says God must magic everything away??!

And yes I am working on a level way far and above my abilities. (and apparently yours when it comes to a fundamental understanding of God)
God: what's a Mag-nate? is that how you say it Mag-net you say and you can foat things with it like trains and make electricity?!?! wuuut... Man sounds easier than magicing thunder bolts, I usally have to have at least 6 tacos per bolt... now I gotta get me some mag-nates..

You know, my cousin converted to christianity because of an episode of his life. He was a lawyer, rich, successful, never believed in anything despite his family being heavily christian and always overindulged himself with food and was huge. Then he had a stroke and his heart almost stopped. The doctors operated him  and he recovered. Since that episode he converted to christianity, saying how he felt this was a 2nd chance from above to stop being a pig and how he'd devote himself to god from that day on. The actual fact however, is that his condition wasn't as bad as he thought and the doctors simply performed a normal operation with a great chance of success. Would you define this as a miracle? I would define this as "statistics".

So God... The master and creator of everything is barred from the OR?
What do men of 'science' use to keep God from the operating room? PKE meter and proton packs? seriously what in your little mind/science or in the bible says God is limited to magic? Then what 'doctrine' says is it ok for only 'science' to live in the hands and workmanship of man? I just gave you an example of God using my hands to create two patentable items, He used my fingers to type out a resolution between creation and evolution.. why can't he also in turn use a surgical knife?

Then you have my auntie, a heavy smoker who was super christian since forever. Very kind and nice with everyone, a golden person who loved life, very generous. Someone who went through divorce because she donated all her savings to help the poor (in disagreement with my uncle). Guess what happened? Her lungs just stopped working. 

Oh, my glob.. what make death a punishment in you opinion? why is death not also seen to be a reward? In truth our death is is our rebirth into eternity. If we die we go home if we live we have more work here to do. Long life is not the reward people make it out to be. maybe after giving that money away she got to simply go home to a loving God and people who she longed to be with again.

And then there is you and I personally don't see how what's special with your tale exactly. Yours just looks like a... life. Harder than some, better than some other (from my pov as a "happiness economist"). One of the many possible combinations. Just like my cousin's, just like my auntie's, just like mine. 

stood before God in judgement, given a second chance, met with spoke to and had an angel detail out my past present and future, graduated with a elementary reading level, found God, he gave me access to his wisdom and understanding, follow the path I was put on went from mopping up floors in a tire store to success I would never have even thought to wish for upon myself. to even greater spiritual accomplishments that seriously make me blush thinking about them, and not only all of that. I stand here before you offering the very same type of treatment for you as I have been given.. I'm not asking you for anything in return, not asking for money you go to this church or that or to give up you pot pizza and porn.. Just honestly and objective follow God where He leads. the rest will work it's way out

But again, those are irrelevant details to me. What puzzles me is how you are so confident and certain that the god described in that book is the truth?.

Like i told you i the very beginning. answered promises. God promised to 'show up' if you ask, Seek and knock and I did and he showed up. in the way of my judgement, in the way of my messenger in the way of business career without the benefit of any rhyme or logical reason to be successful in a career I was not trained for.

Are you sure your life evolved like it did because of God?

When you stand before Christ in judgement, and a messengerof God tells you of your past present and future when you live those things out and at the same time reminded daily (by your peers on this web site) That I can't spell or have terrible grammar/I a moron I have to source the truth from somewhere. if not from me, then from God. Because in 1000% honesty everything I said to you I have lived through I have shared these thing from my very first posts here, and they all ring true.

Or did it evolve like that because of your "convinction" of god's existence?

Sorry no. I did not start life out like your uncle. I started out hating God.

A sort of placebo effect? Or autosuggestion? There are psychology therapies where they make you repeat phrases such as "I am a talented person", "I am not worse than others", "I am not stupid" to build up confidence. How are you certain that you achieved what you did because of god and not because of autosuggestion or one of those confidence build-up techniques?

yeah how many retards hold and sold patents for high six figures? how many retards sold (alot for alot more) a pop last year using one little web site and a car trader type of ad? how much placebo does it take for people and deals to be just dropped in my lap over and over for almost 20+ years does it take to allow me to spend 40 to 60 % of my day here or in research for people like you?

Why do I say retard because it was the technical term "Retarded." they pinned on our shirts while in grade school to keep "us" separated from the normal kids. thankfully after middle school they stopped doing this.. However people knew if you spent more than 1/2 tou classes in the back portables that you were still retarded.

Again you are successful because you where trained to be. It was given to me despite my natural abilities. Again without your pedigree do you think you could have anything you do now? now take away reading and writing and ask yourself honestly where would you be.. yeah?!?! well me too. Cleaning shops after real mechanics and digging holes. if not a thief and stoner.

one two instance yes coincidence is a possible explanation. marginal success? possible placebo.. two patents, sold them doubled down split my business into a factory that makes speciality trucks (again from my own design) and a commercial car lot that sells them internationally, all from money from some one I did not know?!?! then have it all work out for almost 20 years.. seriously I am an MF-ing suvaunt and truly way way smarter than anyone here... Or again as so many of you point out I'm an idiot who's God is propping up with hords of angels working over time keeping busy with stuff God can use me to do.
And after asking my wife this (where she thinks I'm a suvaunt or a pitiful fool God is dragging around and unduly blessing.. )
She:" have you heard the term "idiot savant"
me: yes..
she: 1/2 that term applies.
Me:
Me: S-u-v...
She: I-d-i...
So there's that.

The only limits of man are the ones that man places upon himself.

that's stupid. what constrains a man are his constraints. His limitations. We are all limited, some far more than others. Especially in society. As society is what decides how to measure a man.

A man who does not know his station in life rather a man who is not bound by his limitations are quickly knocked down. just look how Christians are generally treated here in a place who prize non christian thought over what is deem 'rational thought.' You can not tell me my constrains are my own when it is you and you peers who determine my place and position based on what I believe?

After what sounds like an unfortunate tale (according to my view of un/fortunate), you stated that line in red. I want to confirm a few things about that particular sentence, as the practical details elude me:

1) Who was that someone that god supposedly sent you? Was it the guy who loaned you the 25k$?

https://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
This is what I wrote my first year here about that.

2) Why are you so sure it was god (or his messenger/angel)? Why couldn't it have been a random guy? With all the weird shit that happens in life and all the "unusual" people that surround us, why is that particular man so much more special and worth to be assumed to be a godsent? Why couldn't it have been a person like my auntie? Because I asked/determined while he was speaking this guy must be my gaurdian angel. he stopped mid sentence smiled at me and said "something like that."

3) What plan did you follow? Was it a plan you devised and improvised on your own after receiving the money, or was something that the "someone" suggested to you?

Ask/Seek/Knock still do today.

4) What were you promised? How did these promises come to being? Are you sure they became reality because of god and not just because of you?

To have wisdom that exceeds solomons and Wealth to also exceeds his.. Which by OT standards no man wisdom or wealth should ever exceed his.. This bother me for a long time seeing how it was a possible contradiction till I asked God and he said your wisdom is not of man (your a retard solomon was not) your wisdom is that of the Holy Spirit. meaning I have access to God's wisdom which indeed exceeds the wisdom of solomon.. and as far as wealth goes I think basic air conditioning and a 1967 mustang beats and slave girl with a big feather fan or chariot he had so...

Breaking the whole evolution and assimilating it into a 7 day creation.. not to brag but that was definitely me getting to use the old God library card as it came in a 10 or 15 min vision movie I had to put in order...

That is correct. I can't imagine a life with such heavy impairments. I can already barely find a reason to live but my survival instinct keeps me from killing myself; so while I'm alive I just maximize all the activities that bring me excitement, satisfaction, peace of mind or pleasure, while minimizing painful, annoying or boring circumstances. Luckily I am in such condition where I can easily achieve and maintain the current status and so I keep on living. 

while people with paralisis do not have the same struggle to want to live as you do. what if you could find true happiness but had to give up your arms and legs or live miserable with full autonomy? Honestly what does it matter what life looks like if you are truly happy and want for nothing? verse what is life like to want for nothing not even having a desire to live?

Misery is not doing without, it is not living with what you have been given. I have found in poorness in wealth in good health and bad it is possible to be in a living hell or in heaven despite the specifics of your circumstances. In some of my worst times I found my self looking back at how much I learned to love. that how in those times I forged a life I would not give up for anything. while for instance these past few years have been so good I almost remember nothing of them. As Contentment and happiness is not about your situation but how you learn to live despite what is happening to you.

But if something very nasty happened to me such as being cut in half or becoming blind (which would make 80% of my activities impossible), then I would most likely find a way out of this misery through suicide. Why should I suffer pointlessly in that case? Just out of the "hope" that there will be a nice afterlife for me? Who gives me this certainty? What if I just end up prolonging that misery for nothing?

religious nonsense. nothing in the bible says you can not kill yourself.. I wouldn't as despite what I like to do in service to God, if I can do anything I would then be obligated to do what I can. As life is not about me but those in it I try and serve for Him.

I will give you my answer to your question, as I've already asked and pondered this myself many many times: I'd rather live nicely for 50-60 years the present life I know and I'm somewhat sure of (as I wasn't given anything else upon which to base my ideas) rather than suffer 100 years in the hope that some mystical being will grant me a nice afterlife. This is my answer until further evidence shows up. 

your answer is a strawman.
As I asked would you live a shorter life and go to heaven than live a long life being miserable and not know? you answered it backwards.

At this point you may have picked up on the fact that I don't really care about life and that I'm quite positive that nothing really matters in life, so in turn you could ask me "Why are you so confident and positive that nothing matters and that there is nothing afterwards?"

Now, what do you suppose happens when we die and our brain is dispersed in the environment as atoms and molecules? All the neural contacts and links that allowed us to think, reason, remember and "feel feelings", are interrupted and separated. What previously were our brain particles get transformed and recombined into something else. Perhaps they will form a plant, perhaps they will form the shell of a crustacean, maybe they will be swept even further in space, or maybe they'll re-enter another human body. And this cycle will repeat itself with no real goal. It just happens. From these observations, I am somewhat inclined to think that after death there is nothing. This is my theory about life.

But well, I don't have further evidence, so it will remain just my own speculation. Until further evidence shows up (as I highlighted in my previous answer), I will stick to this speculation that to me sounds the most likely and reasonable. 

As you can see, I have no issue in admitting that I don't possess all evidence yet. I don't see anything wrong in admitting that we don't know yet. But if you come on strong and confident that you have found the truth, of course I'll ask you for some kind of evidence. The same evidence I expect out of myself. No less no more. 

again from the god library.. Our brains are not central processors or independant units. meaning our brains are not the self contain computers we have been taught them to be. our brains are transmitter/receivers. the signals we can monitor are sent and receive from the "cloud" for the lack of a better term.. Maybe matrix would be a better term. In that we are a consciousness that resides in a different dimension that what we see live and experience day to day, we inhabit these bodies as avitar/they are our host. The body consists of a spirit and strength stength being a physical form, and spirit being basic cognitive and primal reactions. our soul is what makes us, us it is our higher reasoning and our consciousness at large this is what resides in the 'cloud' or heavenly dimension. so when we die. our link to the cloud in constantly being updated till we die or till this host body dies, and we wake up from the matrix, and ushered into judgement. As we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord."
[quote]
If at the end of the day it turns out you were right, then I will accept my fate. I have no regrets. Taking into account what I was given, I don't consider myself in the "wrong" for not believing. I lived life according to my convinctions and philosophy, I made friends and people like me, so if I won't be able to uncover the truth in time, I'll happily depart with my current ideas. It's fine by me.

Following up on the next points, you can anticipate what the answers will be:
[quote] that is all I am here for.. to make sure people are ok with what they believe. Nothing worse than eccoing eternity with "what if" or if I'd only known...