How to discuss religion with believers?

[Scientia]

EDIT: Third time I try to post this reply, but I keep not seeing it. I must have fucked up something :S
EDIT2: I think I misused the quote function and it broke :x
EDIT3: fixed
EDIT4: Eh, as I suspected it got posted twice. How can I delete my previous duplicate post and keep this updated one?

Since I'll refer to previous points many times, I numbered your points for ease.

@Drich

and you are trying to minimize it. Evidence found in court determines the immediate state of a life. where it is incarcerated or not where or not it is imprisoned for life where or not a life is to be taken. in what field of science demands a life of the scientist if the scientist is wrong? Yes some scientist pay with their lives testing false or wrong hypothesis, but I am talking millions of lives each and every day are determined by a system of eyewitness evidence you are trying to desperately trivialize and dismiss.

Eye witness testimony takes on far greater weight than you are prepared to acknowledge. Our whole society is based what collaborative eye witnesses agree upon. here with Christianity the testimony is not the only thing being presented either.the testimony is simply a personal guarantee that what one experienced is also waiting for you.

1) Evidence found/presented in court and how "justice" is administered in general is just one of the lesser evil. In an uthopic society, you wouldn't need laws and you wouldn't need men-judges. However we all know it doesn't work like that, and so we have to create a system that, despite not being perfect, is somewhat functional and helps to regulate society. Some have subjectively "better" laws/regulations than others and some are questionable.

To undermine the testimony of the eye witness is to undermine the whole criminal justice system.

2) Pretty much. I understand the rules by which society plays, but I still don't see it as the perfect system and many things are left to the subjectivity of the judge. So you are correct in the sense that I do not agree with the whole criminal justice system and that I question it. I don't believe it is right to leave a man's fate in the hands of someone's word. At the same time I can't come up with a better solution at the moment to regulate society, and so I accept it as a compromise for the time being and try to play by the rules. Again, it's one of the lesser evils, otherwise you'd have rampaging savages. 

I see that you tried to go further but you statement if evidence that you can not. It seems you do not even understand how the criminal justice system work let alone science. neither work on the idea of unequivocal proof. Science is all about the best peer review theory and criminal justice is looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 2000 years of people claiming basically the same thing is a little beyond a reasonable doubt.

3) This made me giggle. Science is proven right every single day, justice is not. When something in science doesn't work, it gets revisited and eventually mistakes fixed. 

Scientific results are subjected to the best peer review but, even when wholly accepted by the scientific community, it can happen that a mistake was made along the way and no one noticed. However, eventually that mistake gets out in the open because math, physics and chemistry do not have time. It will happen that theories once deemed correct are revisited, reshaped, modified and corrected once new and more reliable information comes in. That's how it works and it works. It's an attempt to understand how this world works and it functions.

Now let's switch to the justice system. If you find out that the culprit of a crime commited in the 800's was X and not Y, how do you correct it? You can't and that is why this system is flawed. Do we have better alternatives at the present moment? I don't, you don't (I assume) and so we compromise. 

Science is an understanding of the current world that is continuously evolving and adapting as new information completes the picture. The acceptance of scientific results as a consequence of peer review does not constitute a truth per se until it is proven again and again that it works. It's just a first step in the supposedly right direction, a temporary truth. If the scientific community accepts something as truth, but that something doesn't work in the end, then it stops being accepted as truth, it is revised and fixed. 

If if and buts where candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas!!! The judge here is you sport. are you corrupt? are you so in the bag for science you mind will not allow you to judge a eye witness fairly? if so the no evidence scientific or not will allow you to open your mind to God. Here is a test. If you are looking for evidence for God truly, then please describe what would be enough for you. evidence in what form? what would you have to do or see to be satisfied?

4) Oh I like tests. Here's what I require to believe in God: 

I'd like him to show me that he's indeed the omnipotent creator of everything by doing it in front of me. Specifically I'd require him to manipulate matter at the atomic level and transform it by snapping his fingers; for example, displace electrons between oxygen and nytrogen in the air, emit some radiation and turn it into lead or gold or water or whatever. 

I'm asking to see something that no one can currently do but that isn't physically impossible. Basically play by his own rules. If he created everything, if he was the source of the big bang, then it shouldn't be so difficult to replicate a small scale big bang experiment. It shouldn't be so fantasy to transform matter into energy and viceversa. I mean, we can already do that to a certain extent, roughly, but we don't have that much precision. If he can show me that he can manipulate matter at will, manually pick electrons and protons and displace them between atoms, basically if he can show me that he's a "reality surgeon", that he's able to create other realities and also destroy them, then I will acknowledge that he's god. If he can show me that he can transform air into organic matter, make it live and die in front of me, and turn it into a stone, I'll believe he's god. If he can show me that he cuts his own arm or takes out his own heart, lets me touch it and feel it pumping, and then place everything back in his body, I'll believe him. Or well, if anything, I'll at least acknowledge the existence of such a powerful being that I would consider God. It's the same as asking your fellow scientist to replicate the results of his research. Also, he supposedly did something similar already with one of his disciples through the stigmata of Christ but I wasn't there at the time. Can't he do it once more for me?

Perhaps in the future, men will be able to gain such knowledge that allows them to do these feats, and perhaps even a time traveler from the future with such powers could convince me that he's a god. In that case, kudos to him for conning me. I wouldn't be ashamed to have believed in such thing. Even in that case I'll acknowledge them being superior beings on par with any god described in textbooks.

You said he will move mountains of doubt for me. I'm not asking to see mountains moving (that happens anyways naturally, so it's not a big deal), I'm just asking him to introduce himself "Hello, I am God", and replicate a small scale version of his experiment (create the universe and life) deliberately in front of me. Do you think he could do that?

Because well, I refuse to accept as my superior someone who is exactly like me and can do the same things as me but can't be seen, heard, touched or felt in any way and DEMANDS me to serve him. It simply defies my logic, philosophy of life, pride, everything. 

the only truth in science is truth is whatever the collective says it is. In court I would like to say we get it right the vast majority of the time. How can I say this? because I've spent time in jail and been to a prison for a 'visit.' Neither place is filled with nice people. or people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, everyone there will get over on you if they can!

So like it or not it seem that the criminal justice systems and it's burden of proof works far better than you are willing to admit.

5) This was already addressed before at point 3). Just a quick re-answer in case you missed it: you are incorrect. Truth in science is factually, really accepted as truth only afterwards. Even if the scientific community accepts something as truth, that isn't really true until it works again and again and again and again always. And if it stops working at any point, that truth is questioned and revisited and studied again until the mistake is found. Science is evolving and adapting as new knowledge enters the picture. 


You may have spent time in jail, but it's clear to me you haven't spent enough time in a lab, where experiments seldom work as you had planned.

that's not true, lest you are defining objectivity differently.

So define objectivity.

6) Do you really want to push this button ? Not a problem for me, but we'll have to open a new thread for it or it'll derail this one.

No, the seven creation thing simply requalifies creation as a viable non conflicting addition to anything evolution demands. It simply allows believers to hold on to their faith without have to sacrifice any scientific belief that maybe required of them.

7) Basically speculation.

Dude, how big is a mustard seed? aagain it seems as if you missed it or ignored what I said, it is the faith required to simply follow the directions Christ left in an effort to find God. you basically have to be willing to Ask Seek and knock God's way and not your own.

8) Around 1 mm3, circa 2 mg. By putting it into Einstein's equation E = mc2, we get E = (2*10^-6 Kg)*(3*10^9 m/s)^2 which gives us E = 1.8*10^25 J
Translating this number in tangible terms, 1 mustard seed meant in terms of energy is equal to the energy release from the explosion of 50 ton of TNT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIQr62lZbsM , which is quite a considerable amount in my book

Again found in luke 11 this time I will post it:
5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”

The Holy Spirit is God... What more proof of God does one need than to be sat in front of God? to as God a question and receive an answer to pray and effect change to have that "capacity switch" turn on. To see and hear things you could not before to have access to Him and his wisdom. then to put it all to use and it all turn out to work and be true.

9) That's statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_statistics , probability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling . It was a thing 3000 years before the bible was even written. Throw the dice 100 times, statistically you'll get a 6 at some point. How is that the proof that the holy spirit is god or that any of them exists at all? 

Also in life, if you want something badly, you'll do everything to get that something and eventually you get it. That's how you get stuff done in real life. If I want to go somewhere, I'll stress my boss until she's convinced to send me there. If I want to publish a paper in a renown journal, I'll accept all the crap suggestions the editor requires of me until I publish it. If you want to get a job so bad, you'll find it. I obtained pretty much everything I reasonably wanted in life, and it wasn't because of miracles or because some entity helped me. I insisted and insisted and the circumstances were favourable enough until it statistically became a thing. With each attempt I just pushed the odds. That's called determination, perseverance and well, "luck". In all of this I never asked god anything. I did it on my own and I was lucky enough.

It was a dream! Which is consistant with how the NT says God will communicate with us in the last days. (Dreams and visions.) This was a dream because I went to bed and woke up in the same bed! 

Is your question how do I know my dream actually depicts truth? Because of hell. I knew nothing of it besides what movies and TV told us about it most of which parallels the works of Dante' which is a multi layer place where there is a big red satan with a pitch fork and rules hell and torments people in hell. which is nothing like the bible describes or what I felt and witnessed. My dream of hell was biblically accurate before I knew what the bible had to say about hell.

10) Just to confirm: does this "hellfire" refer to the feeling of not being loved or disregarded/ignored/abandoned by god? I've always been curious about this because nuns at school depicted it similarly to Dante's inferno which was scary for a kid, but when you ask actual christians it's like this hell is something more generic and vague, sometimes only an allegoric figure and doesn't refer to actual eternal physical pain and discomfort in the afterlife. Thanks

I did not say you had to stop understanding God. I said if you live you whole life learning as much as you could everyday, you would run out of life before you ran out of God to understand. So for you to presume one could have all the answers is foolish. that said, when one is bonded with the Holy SPirit While we may not have the answers, He does. That is why I am here is to learn more as you all ask questions I would never think to ask in turn I learn more about God. Again the whole assimilation of evolution into creation was all God based on a series of questions one of you asked. I was personally happy with I can see how both ways worked and was happy to say IDK and then someone asked well how would both ways work and it was like i was up loaded everything I needed to know, first shot. I just started writing and had to put the paragraphs in order as I was getting them from every which direction.

11) I said before that I don't really have a reason to live, but I survive and try to distract myself with funny and entertaining activities. That lack of reason to live stems exactly from a limitation in my lifespan that doesn't let me learn all the discernible. If I were immortal, I would want to learn everything. Does this mean that I stopped learning? No, not at all. Even before dying I'll try to learn all I can that I can reasonably digest and assimilate. I thirst for knowledge and so far I navigated this world through the sensory organs of this body I inhabit and through the means of science I was provided at this time in history. I learnt a lot and it's still nothing in the big picture, but this doesn't stop me from asking questions. I'd rather die with unanswered questions than stop questioning and accept suppositions and vague thinking (which religion is, in my eyes). 

For instance, how do you know that the holy spirit knows everything? And who the hell is this holy spirit in the first place (no offense)? I'll most likely die questioning everything, but to me it's better than accepting potentially false truths. And just to clear up potential misunderstandings: if this physical perceived reality ended up being fake, then I wouldn't feel that bad about it because that's all I was given, all I could base my thinking on. But if I am given the means to properly learn and I decide to stop questioning and blindly accept questionable truths, then I'll feel immensely devastated if those accepted truths turn out to be bogus.

Just think, how would you feel if tomorrow you discovered that the hobo who gave you that revelation was a renown con artist that conned many people and ruined someone's life and you just happened to be the statistically "blessed" one? How would you feel if tomorrow you found out that all your success in life was staged and you were the protagonist of a 3rd pov movie (like "the Truman show") and you had just convinced yourself of things? Quite the "what if" scenario, but for someone who questions everything, that is included in the package.

You see, the thing is, if such thing were revealed to me, I would think nothing. I would be ready to accept that as reality as I've been questioning everything since forever, it wouldn't really be a trauma or a big surprise. It'd actually be interesting and enlightening. Don't you feel like you are risking getting destroyed by it by believing something that is potentially false? Or do you think that you've already undergone so much shit that this wouldn't bother you so much anyways (or would perhaps be a relief if anything)?

what is the scientific method. Experimentation and duplication of the results. Meaning we would have to be able to plug in a certain set of parameters and that would demand God kick out a specific response. basically having God on demand. IE I rub a lamp 3 times and a god pops out and he grants me wishes for the good deeds I do. Or if I pray xyz God will give me 123. When in fact In the statement I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the end demands God's character be his own, as such he demanded we approached with A/S/K not the scientific method. If we can obtain God through our method then we are the begnning and end and his word means very little. So when I say you hide and look for God the one place he can never be found.. you literally are looking for Godin the place where if he was found you would have control over him!

12) An invisible and untangible individual DEMANDS me to follow him. Who's this guy to make such DEMANDS? "Show your face, if you dare. Identify yourself, if you exist as you claim!". Are we playing hide and seek? He demands me to follow him blindly, then I demand him to show himself up, that's fair. He started it. 

because he is superior in every way. because we are slaves petitioning to become sons. because we can not take anything God does not give freely.

13) An answer not backed up by tangible evidence. Refer to point 4). Otherwise, in which way is he superior to us? What do we mean by superior?

Hell no. once you receive the Spirit you learn fast Everything has a cost. the more 'god does' the more inept you become, the dependant you are. Granted I am as far into life as I want to be and be this dependant o anyone or thing. I owe so much to God I already feel I could never pay him back and I feel the debt compounds daily, so no I would not want anything more than what it takes to keep all my plates spinning. To closer you are to God the less you ask for in prayer. I even hesitate to ask for others outside of general stuff.

14) So you are telling me that the more independent you are, the furthest you are from God? Then I'm just getting further and further from him, if he existed . My whole life I strived to become independent, strong, self-sufficient, to never need anyone's help and to always fare well on my own. If that's it, then no wonder he never showed up .

Until he begins to work in your life if you let him. if you do then you will quickly come to understand there is nothing you can do to support where he takes you, and that all you are is not your own and you are a steward of this life.

15) Basically I have to turn off my brain and go on auto-pilot? Is this what you mean? Because that's the only circumstance I can picture, which makes me question it even more so.

good thing you are not god.

16) 

again why is death a bad thing? why is a mistake a bad non godly gift?

17) Conversely, why is life a good thing? Why is a correct move/choice a godly gift? If it's all so neutral and irrelevant, if everything is god's gift, then indeed this god is nihilistic (and in that case I wouldn't have any issue to accept an uncaring, indifferent and neutral godlike entity. It's pretty much how I see science).

I was literally outside watching myself as this all happened. I saw components in my mind and I quickly drew out their electrical symbol on the page in relation to one another and then with a ruler connected all the lines with different color pens representing various voltage changes. again something these guys could not do in 6 months of collaboration. It is hard to explain this stuff did not orginate with me it was like it was beamed in and I did everything I could to keep up with the pictures.. I was 100% drawing watchingmy self draw to make sure I did not make any mistakes.

Again when it is you, you know where your limitations are and you know what is not you yet it pours in at your limitations. You know when you are just able to figure stuff out, it's another to pull specs and electrical components out of a 3000 page catalog and put them together in such away on a weekend to work without having the facilities to test. again I tested everything for the first time that monday morning early in front of everyone. I had one chaperone who literally watch me and one of my guys put all of this together in a weekend and then off to the factory to proove it all worked! Then following few day optimized and went from 4 hour run time to just under 12. This sold 4 test units which I went to NYC to install personally it took a week and 1/2 then they ran 2 years and 25 more were bought at which point I was made an offer I could not refuse (in a good way) after that I broke ties and went a new direction. which I am now selling a third (non patented)/too similar to what already exists.. I took a base model industry standard truck and 'optimized' the commercial delivery capabilities and now sell them as a manufacturer/commercial and retail car truck dealer.

Again, the complexity of all of these working parts is well beyond anything I can do myself. What's more no one who works for me is a specialist in anything they do. I simply taught everyone their little part or got someone who could. All my people are second chance people most struggled with diplomas all have criminal records. Again, one or two things go right yes quicidence. but for things to go right in realistically 4 different businesses under two roofs you need a team of highly trained and qualified professionals or you Need God pulling the strings. Maximising profitability and minimizing loss protecting us from 1,000,000 pit falls everyday. We get what we need exactly when we need it everyday. we don't run on huge surpluses we have just enough, and when we need more we get more and when things fall off we us up what we saved. It's like manna from heaven we get just enough to take care of what we need to daily. This to me is great. most people can't operate like this let alone expand. again we have been serving this way almost 20 years now and lord willing I can finish out doing this as it allows me time to work with you all.

18) What you describe sounds like inductive reasoning and, more specifically, like intuition. Why does it resonate with me? Because I'm an intuitive thinker. Reaching the solution of a problem with a step by step procedure was never appealing to me. It sounded too mechanical and uninteresting and boring.

I always found funny and entertaining to figure out the solution of a problem without even writing it down or following the proper procedure. It was just like seeing through it and skipping steps. Or there would be times when I read a text and didn't understand it. Then I would just distract myself, get back to it at a later time and in the meanwhile my brain had subconsciously digested the information. The second time I picked it up it was all clear as if the solution dawned upon me. I've been relying on my intuition since when I was a kid. I could sometimes appear as "lacking" when confronted with algebra (matrices ecc) or immediate deductive reasoning, where most operations were fixed and followed specific rules and paths with not many degrees of freedom, but I was just brilliant in calculus like analysing a mathematical function or finding the end result of an infinite series or integer. I didn't even need to write it down, I could just read it, see patterns, connect the points and narrow down the solution with few inductive moves. Most of my answers sounded like guesses, but I wasn't really guessing.

But this isn't black magic. The feeling of "Ah damn, I can't understand this for shit" followed by "Ah fuck, it was so clear and simple all this time, why do I realize this only now?" is just a process regulated by time. The subconscious analyses what the conscious apprised during the day, digests it, and later on this information is regurgitated. 

Just like there are very intuitive people that may be shit at basic operation but can see right through a target, there are immensely powerful deductive machines. People who have such concentration and discipline of mind that their brain is like a computer processor; these people don't even need to figure out the solution inductively via intuition and may as well have 0 intuition or "gut feeling", but they got so much brainpower that they just deductively process the information with such speed that they can give you the result in a short time (eg those people who can multiply huge numbers in their head like they were living calculators).

A computer is a strictly deductively reasoning machine. You give it an input, it builds up a procedure which is based on the input and it spits a result. However, no matter how powerful a machine can be, it has no intuition. This is why you, as human, are superior to machines. You can skip steps, you can see ahead where the computer can't reach even after 1 million steps. This is why even the most powerful chess machine at the time, deep blue, lost against chess master Kasparov (2:4).

Do not underestimate your brain. Give yourself the merits you deserve. From an intuitive thinker to another. If life for deductive people is a straight constant line, life for an intuitive thinker is like an exponential curve. It starts slowly (even slower than the straight line) and then suddenly shots to the sky. That's how it feels most of the time.

in this case her suffering wasn't for her it was for you. it was for you to test your house of faith you built on the sand to see if it would stand. it was for you to call out to your idea of God and see if he were real enough to help your aunt. It turns out he wasn't and you learned that if you continued to follow your path, believing in your false (built on sand) version of faith and God it would have cost you hell. Now in part to her suffering you know your idea of God is wrong in part you thought God was all merciful your god was all kind your false god was all caring, sounds good, but today you found out the God of the bible can be a little dickish, when it comes to your understanding of compassion and suffering. Now you have found some truth you can begin to sink a foundation, so if you build your nex house of faith you know not to look for God to provide you with the easy life you want for yourself or others. 

19) Oh sir, please do not misunderstand. It is not out of fear for hell that I was trying to "correct" my "lack of faith". If it was out of fear, then I wouldn't have dissed god or toyed with Satan just to make it pop out; I would have played it safe. It was because of my thirst for knowledge. I would have agreed to keep mr Satan company in hell in exchange for the truth.

It is not that I thought god was all nice and merciful, I was TOLD and TAUGHT that by nuns, priests or those hypocritical believers. If their word matters nothing and they were more clueless than me, then it means that there is a huge fog of misinformation surrounding this religion (or any religion). In this sense I am grateful to you that you clarify these things to me, even though I still remain unconvinced (as pointed before). But at least I can better tolerate the train of thought of "true" christians, probably... to a certain extent....

Most of my conversations with self-claimed christians would quickly escalate and end as soon as I questioned and provided a few arguments like I did with you, therefore leaving me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

So at the very least I thank you for answering and holding up to this conversation nicely. As you can see, bad teachers are a thing.

It does. but stories like this are dismissed all the time. they assign a scientific term to the guy and assume God can not work through that term. Or like you they blame the schools for leaving a smart person behind. or they say he was a late bloomer or he is a liar or it is all just good luck. I have heard it all, but the truth is I don't play the lottery any more (Unless it's 1/2 a billion or more) as I far rather see how God full fills the second half of his promise to me.

what I am telling you is that they have investigated this over and over and found a word or a series of scientific words to explain us and again wrongfully assume God can not work through these terms. like high functioning autism or asperger's or misdiagnosised as a child or any number of other things. anything but God. look I know me I know my limts and still struggle with them daily. Here's the proof in it all. I am not a one off. God is not holding me in any special regard. What he has done for me he has promised for the rest of you a-holes.

All one need do is A/S/K on his terms and not your own

20) But that's the point! If it can be already easily explained with science, and so far science worked pretty nicely, why must we involve third parties? If it's all man made and everything can be easily reconducted simply to man, why must we include additional mystical characters that have no more power than man has already shown?

You said that you've heard it already several times, that there is a scientific term for everything. My question is: why it MUST be the act of a godlike entity and not just that? Just like you ask "why it can't be god?" I ask you "Why it can't be just science?". 

For the latter we at least have some semi-decent degree of proof; there are several studies on the brain and how it functions but guess what, the only discipline that tries to delve more intimately in the thought process without bringing in too many sciency things, namely psychology, is not even considered hard science but more like pseudoscience. Basically even among science disciplines there is a black sheep, a section that isn't bulletproof and still questionable but at least it's something. It's still more reasonable and acceptable. But can you say the same for christianity or any other religion for that matter? Let's say, from a statistical point of view, from a pretty probabilistic approach, what is it more likely to be, provided the information we have at hand? 

Again, I think the main difference between us boils down to what we believe to be more probable. For me it's one thing, for you it's the other. I would say the odds favor me, but I remain open to the possibility of being wrong. What I wonder is: why is it not the same for you? 

Again because of my current station in life kinda invalidates your assessment of personal limitations. I have always been willing to do anything, but my situation limited me on when and where. it was not till God came into my life allowed me to follow whatever path he had for me.

Example pre gad highest paying job 4.25 per hour cleaning up shops after mechanics, at a dealer ship. other wise day laborer picked oranges did duct work in an attic works at paint and body sanding panels (could not do that right lasted 2 weeks) workat at tire store organizing tire dumpster. After God:94ish got job in refrigeration business (no experience what so ever) in one year went from min wage to 10.00 per hour, second year moved to flate rate made 40K 3 year was hired on by competitor for 28.00 an hour lasted a year went into business my self the first time with a partner failed. after 9 months. went back to first refrigeration job under condition was given my own service truck and route. worked there in that spot till 2001 about 4 years made between 75 and 90K paid off my first company debt bought my first home and a new truck dirt bake and jet ski, was all mortgaged up then was told the owners son wanted my job. We where the same age and he figured if I could do it... So I packed it all up and went back to competitor I worked for before and he was also quitting said he was opening his own company, he said work for me for 2 years and I will make you a 50% partner. I did two years came and went he gave us a two paid vacation in some ski resort and then disappeared for a whole month. no pay no invoices nothing going out worked till the credit cards stopped, then he came back next day would not give me any clue as to what happened then a month later did it again for two weeks.. Was approached by the man who put me in business for myself and the rest is history.

Again my limits are not my own if they were I would not have taken the opportunities when presented.

21) I don't know, this section sounds as if you somehow agree with what I wrote before about limitations. In this paragraph you seem aware you don't have any intrinsic limitations. Of course life can present all kind of restrictions (eg abusive parents, nasty bosses, nasty people in general who try to block and hinder you, or life circumstances where you are physically blocked), but deep inside you don't really have any instrinsic limitations. Given enough freedom, you can unleash your potential. That's what I meant.

Again, This is my telling, doubting thomas need and got to put his hands in the wounds of Christ. That's the whole point to my telling of my story is to relay to you that God is willing to do the same type of thing for me as he is willing to do for you. Now Imagine how much doubt I have after living though all of that. which is why it is Said He is willing to cast a mountain of doubt into the ocean if you can simply generate a mustardseeds worth of faith. again we expend more faith in global warming than what is needed for God to work a life as he has mine.

22) Refer to 4)

If you read the OP of that story I make the point you just made in that it is not about where the angel came from as it is more about the origins of the message and of they ring true or not. You are focused on the material man to determine authenticity when in truth a messenger is nothing without the message. let's say you met the angel that told marry she was going to have Jesus.. real deal guy. for you there is no doubt who this fella is, but he has nothing to say to you. now let put you in front of your computer at home in your current situation bang out doubt insulsts and the like.. then you come across one of GC posts that while you dismiss cuts you to your quick, you know what is being said may be a generic quip for GC but speaks to you directly to the point you almost feel bad or a conviction as if God were indeed calling you. I ask you now who is the angel who is the messenger God sent? The guy who spoke to marry or the guy who deep down has pierced your heart in some way?

At the time my idea of angels were not dirty homeless black men. but the message rang 100% true, the fact I spoke to in in thought shook me to no end, the fact he recited special prayers I prayed in secrete shook me to my core, the very wrds I used to pray for me and another person almost had me stop driving. this man not only pierced my heart with out a word of who I was or what I was about He knew me eve if I could not fully recognise him today 

23) Lol, was this really what it looked like with GC post? Then I'll correct your misunderstanding: GC was the easiest post to dismiss because it dismissed itself on its own by saying "I won't reply back". In spite of this, I still played by his rules because I like games and I don't mind overkill, and so I replied to his weak points, to which I naturally received no answer. More than "pierced my heart" it never hit the target to begin with. It just reminded me of one of psychforums user, Rob K, who used to drop random non-sensical and disconnected replies in every thread to later edit his posts with a dot ".". (P.S. I didn't remember the guy's nick so I went back to that forum and re-read some of my ancient posts from 7y ago and I was delighted in seeing that my thought process has been consistent throughout these years after the realization I had at 21. I'd say that was the most important period of my life: when I realized that nothing matters).

did you miss the bit about being consumed by Hell fire? did you miss the part where it illicites the same response as if being burned? that eventually it consumes the soul or at least the part that holds together out sanity?

24) Reconnecting to point 10), so there is some sort of physical pain/discomfort associated with this hellfire? Or it's just what you personally felt at the realization that he ignored/didn't love you? I mean, it doesn't sound such a big deal for an intangible, invisible individual to not love you :/

the loss of God love only begets a deep regret. it is not the sum total of the hell experience.

25) Didn't get it.

till your eye glasses broke.. 

26) Ahah, it reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgjahj-3qg

more or less. in those days inorder to marry in or become a member of the famly you wrkes first as a slave. same kinda of thing here. We are saved from sin which makes us members or citizens f heaven, but the great reward comes if you serve and become a son of God.

27) Then I refuse to serve someone who doesn't even bother to show up after "demanding".

So here is exactly what I meant about faith in science and how it takes less faith for belief in God.,, Now to you since 2018 the hole narritive has taken a sharp change in that now there was never a hole. when in 85 when the were selling the taxes that would save us there was a definate hole.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...eclining1/

28) I wasn't even born in '85, but it's not like the understanding of the average citizen about these thematics has improved much. I said it before, I chose chemistry as my discipline because it's the scientific subject that most closely helps you understand reality at its very basic level. Chemists are the bastards behind the scenes that help big companies put leverage on natural phenomenons to gain some (economical) advantage. I'll reveal you some "secret" about the industry of electric cars or hydrogen cars: there is no such thing as "clean" energy as they advertise it. It is true that electric cars do not pollute, but where do you think you get electricity? Yes, you burn coal. You just displaced the polluting source. It is true that burning hydrogen only produces water and so it is safe. But how do you get hydrogen? You burn methane. You just moved the polluting source out of your customer's eyes. 

One of my professors even boasted about his success because he defended in a court trial a nasty factory that was polluting a river, and he won because he made some leverage on the weak points of the accuse. He knew his stuff. When you have to deal with this kind of people, all the nice and ideal world they advertise on TV just disappears. But I am grateful to these nasty individuals, because in the attempt to "form" us they also teach us how it really functions out there. Just like global warming was always a thing but it was overexagerated here and there for some profit. 

I don't know in which country you live, but here they banished gasoline containing lead compounds and the reason given was "because lead is toxic". Do you want to know which was the real reason? "It was too expensive to maintain, it's easier the other way". But when you have to take out something from the market, you need a strong reason, a strong driving force and so you embellish the reason to make the transition easier and more painless. The industry, first and foremost, cares about the profit. No one gives a shit about people safety.

If there is a thing I learnt, is that there is always an equilibrium. If something is too good to be true, then it's most likely that. But to discover such things, I think you need to be inside "it" or have someone who is together with the nasties.

then you would be most likely responsible to see the crack head die inside of a week of a overdose.

29) Nope. Everyone is responsible for his own demise. It may be a "strong" way to put it, but "the weak deserves to die so the strong may flourish" or "the weak deserve their fate" or any variation of this phrase. And I will accept it if, one day, I'll take the fall because I wasn't fit enough. That's how it should be.

the law, if you are not save and whether or not you have accepted the atonement offered.

30) What does the atonement consist in? For example, you said that 

tell that to the illiterate who just magical began to pick it up.. As it says in scripture you do not need a teacher as the very one (the holy Spirit) who wrote the scriptures also instructs you. all you need is the bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

You don't need commentary. God will give you what you can handle as you read it. Meaning a cursory read through will most likely draw out major contrasts between your version of God and the God of the bible/you will want to point out contradictions as you see them. This is seeking God. take those contradictions to me or one like me and pray "dear god help me figure out the truth amen" till you find something that jives.

31) But I had already taken that route way back then, when I could have been the most inclined to buy in that story. I even went to one of my professor's house twice a week because I wanted him to properly teach me christianity, not like those lazy guys at the afterschool, and he was very moderate and decent in his teachings without overdoing it. But the more he taught me, the less I was inclined to buy it. Then I tried reading it on my own and I was still unconvinced. It just looked like "administer good sense" sort of general advice. Afterwards I stepped up my game and I went ahead with my homemade summoning rituals (lol), then tried other ways but in the end nothing happened (and it's not really surprising me now).

Also, I clicked on that link you provided but it just narrates the story of Jesus. I already know that. I was taught that in school, then I saw some documentary about it, there were movies about it, parodies about it. I think I assimilated that story in all kind of variations and what's written in that website isn't any different from what I already know. And it remained a story. The same story I remembered. Did I overlook something important?

EXTRA question:

Since I think you can provide me a clarification like you did before, I have some questions that were always answered vaguely:
1) Why God put an apple tree in the Eden in the first place? Like ok, you created Adam and Eve and put them in Eden and you tell them they can do whatever they want but they have to stay away from the apple tree. Why not put some fence around it if it was so precious? Why show them the apple tree at all? Also, apple is one of the most boring fruits, they probably wouldn't have even considered it at all if God didn't tell them about it. It's like asking a kid "don't press this giant red button". 

Then you said that God gives each according to their ability: didn't he foresee that they would have been tempted by his prohibition? It's like he got what he asked for. To me it looks like he just wanted to find an excuse to mess up with them.

2) What do Hell, Purgatory and Paradise represent exactly? If they are not the grotesque depictions of Dante, then what are they exactly? 
- You already mentioned that Hell is like not feeling loved by god but at the same time it burns (physical burn?)
- What is purgatory exactly then? Like, can you get out of hell and be promoted to purgatory, or once you get thrown there that's it? And if Purgatory is a place where to atone for the little sins you did, how do you atone exactly? Like, you just wait in a queue (like at the post office)? I always pictured purgatory as the post office queue.
- What is heaven? Dante's depiction was so boring that I think I would have gone insane there. Hell may have been grotesque and weird but at least it sounded more fun than post-office-purgatory or boring-ass heaven. And once you arrive there, are you met by this old dude and sit on a cloud sofa or what? Can you watch TV? Play games? Eat pizza? Eat your lover? A heaven without those is as appealing as hell.

3) Please watch this 7 min video and tell me what you think about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g 
It is clearly meant to be an analogy to the christian god, but done in a somewhat provocative way. I think you can give me an honest opinion without feeling offended or attacked. Our conversation has been going on for a while, so I think we sorted that stuff out already