How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

21) I don't know, this section sounds as if you somehow agree with what I wrote before about limitations. In this paragraph you seem aware you don't have any intrinsic limitations. Of course life can present all kind of restrictions (eg abusive parents, nasty bosses, nasty people in general who try to block and hinder you, or life circumstances where you are physically blocked), but deep inside you don't really have any instrinsic limitations. Given enough freedom, you can unleash your potential. That's what I meant.

Your belief as I understand it. We set our own limitations. My statement I have never limited myself however at the time when I could bearly read my limits were set by society in the way of not many high paying jobs for people who can not read. Meaning it is evident that both are true. one can limit themselves and soceity can place limits on you.

Again, This is my telling, doubting thomas need and got to put his hands in the wounds of Christ. That's the whole point to my telling of my story is to relay to you that God is willing to do the same type of thing for me as he is willing to do for you. Now Imagine how much doubt I have after living though all of that. which is why it is Said He is willing to cast a mountain of doubt into the ocean if you can simply generate a mustardseeds worth of faith. again we expend more faith in global warming than what is needed for God to work a life as he has mine.

22) Refer to 4)

and again if an important person in this world will not meet you on your own terms then why expect God to meet you on your terms.. who are you to demand God perform tricks for you?

If you read the OP of that story I make the point you just made in that it is not about where the angel came from as it is more about the origins of the message and of they ring true or not. You are focused on the material man to determine authenticity when in truth a messenger is nothing without the message. let's say you met the angel that told marry she was going to have Jesus.. real deal guy. for you there is no doubt who this fella is, but he has nothing to say to you. now let put you in front of your computer at home in your current situation bang out doubt insulsts and the like.. then you come across one of GC posts that while you dismiss cuts you to your quick, you know what is being said may be a generic quip for GC but speaks to you directly to the point you almost feel bad or a conviction as if God were indeed calling you. I ask you now who is the angel who is the messenger God sent? The guy who spoke to marry or the guy who deep down has pierced your heart in some way?

At the time my idea of angels were not dirty homeless black men. but the message rang 100% true, the fact I spoke to in in thought shook me to no end, the fact he recited special prayers I prayed in secrete shook me to my core, the very wrds I used to pray for me and another person almost had me stop driving. this man not only pierced my heart with out a word of who I was or what I was about He knew me eve if I could not fully recognise him today 

23) Lol, was this really what it looked like with GC post? Then I'll correct your misunderstanding: GC was the easiest post to dismiss because it dismissed itself on its own by saying "I won't reply back". In spite of this, I still played by his rules because I like games and I don't mind overkill, and so I replied to his weak points, to which I naturally received no answer. More than "pierced my heart" it never hit the target to begin with. It just reminded me of one of psychforums user, Rob K, who used to drop random non-sensical and disconnected replies in every thread to later edit his posts with a dot ".". (P.S. I didn't remember the guy's nick so I went back to that forum and re-read some of my ancient posts from 7y ago and I was delighted in seeing that my thought process has been consistent throughout these years after the realization I had at 21. I'd say that was the most important period of my life: when I realized that nothing matters).

Glob take GC out of the equasion and plug in huggy CL or me. The point is NOT WHO YOU ARE SPEAKING WITH!!!! BUT THE MESSAGE Read what I wrote again. If literal angel of God made himself know to you and had nothing to say to you he would literally be less of an angel if one of us brought you a message that cut you to your quick.
trying to get you to look outside the box in how the Holy Spirit sends messages to you.

did you miss the bit about being consumed by Hell fire? did you miss the part where it illicites the same response as if being burned? that eventually it consumes the soul or at least the part that holds together out sanity?

24) Reconnecting to point 10), so there is some sort of physical pain/discomfort associated with this hellfire? Or it's just what you personally felt at the realization that he ignored/didn't love you? I mean, it doesn't sound such a big deal for an intangible, invisible individual to not love you :/

there is an initial panic of disolving into hell, then the oh, my God this panic is going to be forever... Then but I know I belong here because I do not fit in with he love in Heaven then it was I know I belong here but would I have done anything different if I had known the truth? Could I have been apart of that love, that was going to be the thing that ate my sanity.. I know I belong but did I need to be here was I truly evil? That part I did not know and that part is why I answer questions so that you know.. again the hell fire was sheer removal from clam rational thought an instant conversion to primal guttural responses that gave way to fore your mind to the forefront to try and think through this just to be crushed by the idea of infinity. once your sanity is gone then it really doesn't matter what happens to the rest of you as what makes you you is consumed by the fire. I think however this process of being consumed by the fire takes longer the more wicked you are.

till your eye glasses broke.. 

26) Ahah, it reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgjahj-3qg

Something like that however My mind went to the orginal

more or less. in those days inorder to marry in or become a member of the famly you wrkes first as a slave. same kinda of thing here. We are saved from sin which makes us members or citizens f heaven, but the great reward comes if you serve and become a son of God.

27) Then I refuse to serve someone who doesn't even bother to show up after "demanding".

So you would not work for anyone who did not serve your need to be the authority? maybe you could open up a coffee shop.

So here is exactly what I meant about faith in science and how it takes less faith for belief in God.,, Now to you since 2018 the hole narritive has taken a sharp change in that now there was never a hole. when in 85 when the were selling the taxes that would save us there was a definate hole.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...eclining1/

28) I wasn't even born in '85, but it's not like the understanding of the average citizen about these thematics has improved much. I said it before, I chose chemistry as my discipline because it's the scientific subject that most closely helps you understand reality at its very basic level. Chemists are the bastards behind the scenes that help big companies put leverage on natural phenomenons to gain some (economical) advantage. I'll reveal you some "secret" about the industry of electric cars or hydrogen cars: there is no such thing as "clean" energy as they advertise it. It is true that electric cars do not pollute, but where do you think you get electricity? Yes, you burn coal. You just displaced the polluting source. It is true that burning hydrogen only produces water and so it is safe. But how do you get hydrogen? You burn methane. You just moved the polluting source out of your customer's eyes. 

yeah kinda had that discussion with a brother in law 20 years ago when he bough one of the first hybrids. concerning the process in making batteries and then plugging into a coal fire electrical grid who down time was at nigh which if everyone bought a pos electric car would never have an off peak time. You were trading one form of pollution for two or three others.

One of my professors even boasted about his success because he defended in a court trial a nasty factory that was polluting a river, and he won because he made some leverage on the weak points of the accuse. He knew his stuff. When you have to deal with this kind of people, all the nice and ideal world they advertise on TV just disappears. But I am grateful to these nasty individuals, because in the attempt to "form" us they also teach us how it really functions out there. Just like global warming was always a thing but it was overexagerated here and there for some profit. 

agree. once they saw the trillions coming out of the ozone thing they sought out the next sky is falling money maker.. "Carbon credits" was a tax they were going to push to save the world from global warming. To be worked like bit coin, guess who held the reserve of credits... Mr. Al Gore Himself.

I don't know in which country you live, but here they banished gasoline containing lead compounds and the reason given was "because lead is toxic". Do you want to know which was the real reason? "It was too expensive to maintain, it's easier the other way". But when you have to take out something from the market, you need a strong reason, a strong driving force and so you embellish the reason to make the transition easier and more painless. The industry, first and foremost, cares about the profit. No one gives a shit about people safety.

yes agree here as well.

If there is a thing I learnt, is that there is always an equilibrium. If something is too good to be true, then it's most likely that. But to discover such things, I think you need to be inside "it" or have someone who is together with the nasties.

Its a simple pattern. Find a hungry scientist 'fund' him to find whatever it is you need. They will always find proof, make people aware documentry or movie or even social media now, 'lobby' politicians/Pay them to make a stink change policy reap billions because of market shift.

repeat.

Here's the thing with "higher learning' Most people here on this web site will only accept information if it comes filter through certain sources we in school been trained to recognise that is why the 2016 campaign keep blaming hillary's non land slide victory to uneducated people. because all the indoctrinated pro clinton material was being provided by these accepted sources and she still lost. meaning dumb people were not smart enough to blindly believe everything we were being told. This structure of transmitting and receiving 'public knowledge' is ingrained into us by 'higher learning' facilities. Facilities that demand we think the same way that we reason the same way that demand we share common morality and values, and yes demand we hate anything not up to our standards. That is why anything with the 'science' frame work around it is believed as absolute truth. I was on board in 85 to 93, but then I saw what it was about. they took a product off the market that sold for .50 a pound and at the end of the production run because this country desperately needed a refrigerant that the one company who sponsored the global initiative who found the hole in the OZone who sold the old stuff and produced the new, was able to sell a .50 12 oz can for 300.00 then sell the new stuff for 150.00

Now FF 20 year and the patents have now run out on the new stuff that sell for 6.00 a 12 oz can just like the patents on the old stuff ran out in 93. Now the new stuff has been found to dramatically increases the global warming effect and must now also be bann so we can not pay 400 to 600 dollars for a 12 oz can of refrigerant.

Duponte scientist said it it must be true..

Did you watch the movie the fox catcher? it was about how f-ing crazy the CEO of duponte was in the 1980's but also how smart and the fact he had so much money he literally owned everythig around him. This is his scam played out by governments now.

then you would be most likely responsible to see the crack head die inside of a week of a overdose.

29) Nope. Everyone is responsible for his own demise. It may be a "strong" way to put it, but "the weak deserves to die so the strong may flourish" or "the weak deserve their fate" or any variation of this phrase. And I will accept it if, one day, I'll take the fall because I wasn't fit enough. That's how it should be.

Give a monkey a gun and if he shoots someone it is not the monkey's fault. In turn give a crack head a million dollars and he OD's in a week you indeed killed him. Someone like that has no internal control anymore the demon of addiction has taken control, and it will make them use till the money or their breath runs out.

the law, if you are not save and whether or not you have accepted the atonement offered.

30) What does the atonement consist in? For example, you said that 
On the simple side it is praying "Dear lord I know I am a sinner/broken your laws, and I know I will continue to do so for the rest of my life however I ask that you forgive me of my sins again you and my fellow man any way. Then as a start you must live out this example of forgiving those who sin against you. This make take a while if you have an a-hole father as I do, but over time try and forgive those as if it where you who needed forgivness. the rest will come over time. Meaning trying to resist or abstaining from sin will be something you will eventually want to do even if you can't. That is call repentance. where you internally hate sin even if you are still tied to it. Paul explains this in much better detail in romans chapters 6,7 and 8

tell that to the illiterate who just magical began to pick it up.. As it says in scripture you do not need a teacher as the very one (the holy Spirit) who wrote the scriptures also instructs you. all you need is the bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

You don't need commentary. God will give you what you can handle as you read it. Meaning a cursory read through will most likely draw out major contrasts between your version of God and the God of the bible/you will want to point out contradictions as you see them. This is seeking God. take those contradictions to me or one like me and pray "dear god help me figure out the truth amen" till you find something that jives.

31) But I had already taken that route way back then, when I could have been the most inclined to buy in that story.

and you tested the god you found and got back total silence. so then you rebuild have that verion of God tested and you rebuild. not every verion will be 100% wrong, so you hold on to what is right and rebuild everything else. I'd say in side a year you could have a good working understanding of Who god is and how he works.

I even went to one of my professor's house twice a week because I wanted him to properly teach me christianity, not like those lazy guys at the afterschool, and he was very moderate and decent in his teachings without overdoing it. But the more he taught me, the less I was inclined to buy it. Then I tried reading it on my own and I was still unconvinced. It just looked like "administer good sense" sort of general advice. Afterwards I stepped up my game and I went ahead with my homemade summoning rituals (lol), then tried other ways but in the end nothing happened (and it's not really surprising me now).

we are supposed to fail alot. because what we are doing is pealing away the personal I want a god who does... and are left with the God described in scripture.

Also, I clicked on that link you provided but it just narrates the story of Jesus. I already know that. I was taught that in school, then I saw some documentary about it, there were movies about it, parodies about it. I think I assimilated that story in all kind of variations and what's written in that website isn't any different from what I already know. And it remained a story. The same story I remembered. Did I overlook something important?

Jesus does tell us how to obtain the Holy Spirit He tells us the difference between petition and prayer he shows us it is the Holy Spirit that empowers Him and will also be sent to us to give us more than what even he was able to do.

EXTRA question:

Since I think you can provide me a clarification like you did before, I have some questions that were always answered vaguely:
1) Why God put an apple tree in the Eden in the first place? [/quote] Not free will (that is a late 1200 greek construct/philosophy but to give us choice yes the bible/ God sees us as slaves to him or sin but even slaves had choice. The tree was choice to be in (not the city of heaven but to be in his presence/heaven or to serve a master of sin who promises complete freedom but only dilivers pain and suffering. Imagine that God created Adam and eve right after the earth was formed 100 bazzillion years or go or whatever 'science says now.' and he planted the seeds that would later become the oceans land animals plants birds and even man outside the garden. But inside the garden God created a paradise that would resemble what the world would evolve into about (6000 or so years ago) Why then? because God knew that was when the fall was going to be. Yes he would loose Adam and eve but because he planted those seeds the people from the garden would have a world and better yet a people to bless with souls when their kids and their kids kids had children. To one day populate the world with people with souls. So that the may all experience sin. So when it came time to make the choice Eve made (but in reverse/she was alive with God and died, and we in sin are dead to God but choose to live) we would not be courious about sin and could choose (if we chose God) without question or reservation. We could enter heaven and have our sin curiosity quota filled.

So why do this and why not make a race of people in heaven? He did that already with the angels. and over 1/3 of them fell surcombing to sin. lucifer's temptation being too great. So it is written we will live in a place with God for 1000 years. (all of the saved) then satan will be let loose one more time to temp the saved one more time to give those who changed their minds about serving God an way out. Then he and those who want to go with him will be seal in hell for ever. Again it is and it always is about choosing To be with God.

Adam and Eve were given this choice created to be immortal and living with God potentially for billions if not trillions of years before temptation ate them alive, to the point they died from their imortal lives and was given over to the pain and suffering of life outside the garden. This life for us is about the same choice, and we will get a third chance in the next. In short God wants to ensure those who seek to spend eternity with him want to be there under his rule and grace. because eternity is a long long time.

Like ok, you created Adam and Eve and put them in Eden and you tell them they can do whatever they want but they have to stay away from the apple tree. Why not put some fence around it if it was so precious? Why show them the apple tree at all? Also, apple is one of the most boring fruits, they probably wouldn't have even considered it at all if God didn't tell them about it. It's like asking a kid "don't press this giant red button". 

Imagine it was not an apple tree but just forbidden fruit. that could have been a metaphor for even sex. We don't know. but we do know they were given a 'garden' 2/3 the size of North america to explore and find adventure in. which is probably why it took them so long to finally give in.

Then you said that God gives each according to their ability: didn't he foresee that they would have been tempted by his prohibition? It's like he got what he asked for. To me it looks like he just wanted to find an excuse to mess up with them.

I think you don't get that it was the plan all along for the fall. why else plant man outsie the garden?

2) What do Hell, Purgatory

purgatory I found out was a religious construct and has no bearing in scripture. Turns out the R/C church was selling such a hard nose legalistic version of salvation no one saw themselves as 'good enough' so people started to giving up so purgatory was a stop gap measure to try and save those who mean well but can't quite cut the mustard. In truth there is no purgatory according to the bible, Jesus or the Apostles. In truth Christ divides us or looks at us and our thoughts and intentons/everything and makes a right honest fair judgement. The church back then took this power for themselves and made salvation conditional on everything they wanted.. including money owed, days you could miss, if you were tasked to build a new church out of pocket or the like. A good man who tried but died or failed needed a way to pay for failing but would ultimatly wind up in heaven, that is what pugatory is.

Hell is the grave or the pit or the destruction of the soul. Hell is the eternal imprisionment of Satan, everyone and everything else is destroyed by hell at some point or another. Again I thin the more evil you are the longer your torment but that is my view not the bible.

and Paradise represent exactly?

Paradise refers to the garden of eden which the muslims have taken for their after life while we and God as said to inhabbit a new heaven and a new earth after the resurrection and final judgement.

If they are not the grotesque depictions of Dante, then what are they exactly? 

ever watch a log being consumed and slowly broken down by a hot hot fire and coals till it is ash? that is hell for us. The log goes in whole and after a few mins the whole thing is still hold but blacked with ash where the fire begins to penetrate the wood and bark then the next stage the wood itself begins to burn where as before the fire heat and flames came from the outside burning inwards, but now at this stage the wood is cracking around it's edges and the flames are beginning to take hold in the out edges of the wood. next the log is fully involved meaning even if you took the log out of the fire the fire on the log would still burn, at this point the log is going to burn up no matter what, the big crack become scales while the bright light of the fire has died down the truly hot white/blue flames break the log down into scales and coal then those embers can go out or be stoked for the next log. Hell is a sentient version of that log.

- You already mentioned that Hell is like not feeling loved by god but at the same time it burns (physical burn?)

the absence of the love you know was offered is just apart of the regret that later consumes and destroys the mind. the idea of so much pain when you felt God's love and you know that could have been foreve makes you turn on yourself for being placed here.

- What is purgatory exactly then? Like, can you get out of hell and be promoted to purgatory, or once you get thrown there that's it? And if Purgatory is a place where to atone for the little sins you did, how do you atone exactly? Like, you just wait in a queue (like at the post office)? I always pictured purgatory as the post office queue.

see above

- What is heaven? Dante's depiction was so boring that I think I would have gone insane there. Hell may have been grotesque and weird but at least it sounded more fun than post-office-purgatory or boring-ass heaven. And once you arrive there, are you met by this old dude and sit on a cloud sofa or what? Can you watch TV? Play games? Eat pizza? Eat your lover? A heaven without those is as appealing as hell.

The universe stretches out forever we have forever... I believe the sons those who work as slaves and are trusted and becomes sons get to go out and each given to his ability.. to one an asteroid maybe to another a planet to develop or maybe to another a whole region of space.. or maybe we are given star ships and told to go explore. The bible does not say much but I know there is a reason for an infinite universe and an infinity amount of time to go and do. If adam and eve lasted billions of years in 2/3 the size of the USA how much more will there be for us to do and accomplish?

3) Please watch this 7 min video and tell me what you think about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g 
It is clearly meant to be an analogy to the christian god, but done in a somewhat provocative way. I think you can give me an honest opinion without feeling offended or attacked. Our conversation has been going on for a while, so I think we sorted that stuff out already 

honestly it's a straw man Senerio. Remember when I said you built a version of God tested it and it proved it self to not be there? was that God's fault? this guy has gone off the rails. 1 Christianity is not about 'morality'/be good enough and go to heaven/be bad and go to hell.

This is why this video is straw man version of reality, because none of the ants had knowledge of God. this poor man assumes this is true for all of us. At the end the ants going into the oven were oblivious to everything going on while even to this guy if God is silent his word is not other wise he would know nothing of the over the words placed on tiny tablets the need or desire to not murder or wear cloths. The narrator is more aware of his God than the ants are yet he hides this fact in his straw man by making himself/us out to be ant but are unaware.

Let's say the ants where aware and 1/2 say the provider and did what was asked.. the other 1/2 hated the 'sell outs and demanded they simply remains ants and pretend they hear nothing. would it not then be provider's duty to then separate the ants? the one's who obey from those who do not? Would it not then be right to reward the faithful and punish the wicked? The analogy is crap because it does not closely follow the relationship it is trying to mock. this poor guy's idea of God is so far off outside of the idea of hell which is not exclusively christian there really is nothing of note being discussed unique christian.

I wish I could do videos man I would knock them out of the park.

If you want an analogy let's say the world every man woman and child is or has been infected with a legit A+B zombie virus not a destroy the brain but have to burn the body or any meaty part is comming for you and will trigger the undead cycle. meanig in this case the zombie virus is split and every person carries a "a" part of the virus and or a "b" part. So when A's die they seek bs and when "B"s die the seek A's. if you touch a blood being a b or b blood being an a or get bit or any type of a/b transfer (even close procimit coughing would cause the zombification process meaning a high fever causing brain partial death leaving only primal need to reproduce virus) hence bitting and bleeding

So a' and b's have to be separate.


Now lets say it's been a few years and a vaccine is found that neutralizes just an a virus or just b, but if the two sides can come together before the vaccine and you get the combined blood you are zombie even if you had the vaccine for a or the b.

so FF 10 more years and a huge ultra modern city is built with huge walls, but out side it is still dangerous because supplies are low and A's are wandering into B territory looking for food and spawning zombies.. So that makes "the good people of both a and b group" want to enter this new city but the deal is you must take this vaccine. Which turns out to be the literal blood of the guy who built the city.. Say it was trump, and all you had to do to qualify to live in this new city was that you had to take this trump shot, but before you could, you must first openly honor and take a pledge to him and the city to work as a slave under him in this new city for an unspecified amount of time. most of which was going out into a or b land (being immune to either of the seperatly seeking people to join the city life.)

Recap:
So A blood plus b blood= Zombie
A's live in one 1/2 of the country and B's live in the other 1/2
Enter vaccine
A+ vaccine= ok to mix with b blood=vaccine This means A and B can co mingle safely again.
So A's and B's create a mega city in the middle of the country.

however:
if Zombie A and Zombie b mix before vaccine= can still infect vaccine a or b. Meaning a full on zombie can infect anyone even if they have the vaccine for a or b, which means people in the city can go out an co mingle with non vaccinated people but non vaccinated people can not come in the mega city

Now in this reality this shot.. is not contingent on who you where out side the city walls what you had o do to survive, whether you were a good a or a bad b or vise versa.. It's primary requirement is that you are not carring both a and b (been zombified but not dead yet/in the terms of Christianity sin loving evil person) and that you are wiling to pledge to follow trump law going forward and you take part in serve in what he is building.

But douche bag you tubers who only get their information 4th person from someone who heard trumps actual message when they were 4 th grade, feel like the truth is trump is looking for moral "A"s in B land and douche bag youtubers say trump is looking for moral "B"s in A land. meaning looting stealing and basic survival stuff keeps you from entering the city... Then there are As and Bs who simply hate trump with all that they are. and also hate anyone who dare take his blood.

So Fast forward 10 more years and now no truth is left outside the walls. all who would take the vaccine have and drove the truth tellers away, and all that is left are those who hate trump and his city dewellers. All the while The hords chip away a city moral stating they should not have to take the oath that they should not have to be immunized they say they trumps rule is unfair and racist that it is against human nature to work under one person's vision or plan that it is not fair trump will not come to me directly and personally excuse me from all the BS everyone else has to do and on and on and on with what they feel like they are entitled to despite their lack of most basic efforts in trying to simply become a member of the city. So now both A's and B's are in close proxcimity to one another just outside the city walls. no one has kicked off the zombie outbreak yet but it is just a matter of time before they do.

To the people out side they are doing some stupid hippy style occupy wall street protest, when in truth they are incubating a world wide pandemic of uncontrolled zombie outbreak/evil, which is where we stand now. To which the only answer for those inside is Hell fire to cleanse away the hord.. But that is not what the horde see they see "The infected" wanting in the safe zone. citing their post fall of man pop-morality as being 'good enough' reason to allow them in, when in fact morality has nothing to do with it but everything to do with the blood of Christ and if you have it or not. whether or not you carry the virus or have been vaccinated!