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Current time: July 20, 2025, 5:06 pm

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How to discuss religion with believers?
#88
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
@Drich
Quote:never the less judgement and eyewitness testimony is the glue that binds THIS society together. without it there is no justice there is no peace there is no society. So why then pretend that taking the word of an eye witness is some how a marginal form of evidence? when the literal F-ing world works this way!
I don't know why you keep bringing in society. We are talking about science, something neutral regulated by neutral formulas and equations, and you want to compare it with some man-made compromise/truce of sort. Moreover not the entire world works on society Smile, just to say, while math, physics and chemistry are the same in every corner for the universe. It's apples and oranges.

Quote:why does this need be a perfect system? when all that needs to be generated is a faith that of a mustard seed to inspire one to truly seek out God on his terms? It's not that you are ment to find christ on my experience? you are meant to seek out God and forge your own experience with God, whether it be an angel dream vision so real the memory plays back with smells and taste, or maybe The Spirit himself will sit you down and explain as if you were retarded. God know what you need, and will over time give you everything you need to establish and maintain your own relationship. Just gotta seek him on his terms and not your own. That's all my account is suppoed to do for you. is to get you to look for God where he says look for him. Then hold on to something because everything will change.
It needs to be perfect, because otherwise it's flawed. Also again, you are being unclear about what the "mustard seed" exactly means.

Quote:no. Some areas of science can be exploited as we understand basic principles we can predict through the very method God will never be found for if he is then would not be God. There is much in science that over time is proven wrong even if everyday from now till then we think is right. again until jan 2018 there was a literal hole in the ozone. not a thin layer a physical hole was said to be there that sealed itself in 97 (My industry was greatly effected by this and alot of changes where made and as a result we all were made to follow said progress, till a whistle blower blew the bottom out of this whole thing. now almost 30 years later the truth is coming out and you noobs have no idea how much the science had changed to fit the money grab that took place between 1985 ans 1993 from which I have a federal issued card in my wallet that says I have bee tested and understand all the ins and outs of the Montreal protocol and the reasoning behind it! which is the polar oppsite of what is being said now.

My point is the faith one has to have in ever changing science is infact Greater than what is needed for God Himself to take your life and give you everything YOU personally need to start and maintain a relationship.

Global cooling and the mini ice age by 2000 was another example. 

Then in 98/99 global warming then in 2010 global climate change so no matter what happens the sky is falling!

Never hear of a case being over turned?
The same happenes either way sport you are missing the whole point.

The evidence is not in my experience my experience is to show you it is possible to get your own experience with God collecting the evidence he direct to you specifically.
It seems as if you missed or straight out ignored a piece of my post and no, I'm not discounting you anything. I had already written the answer to this and I'll post it again:
Scientific results are subjected to the best peer review but, even when wholly accepted by the scientific community, it can happen that a mistake was made along the way and no one noticed. However, eventually that mistake gets out in the open because math, physics and chemistry do not have time. It will happen that theories once deemed correct are revisited, reshaped, modified and corrected once new and more reliable information comes in. That's how it works and it works. It's an attempt to understand how this world works and it functions.


Now let's switch to the justice system. If you find out that the culprit of a crime commited in the 800's was X and not Y, how do you correct it? You can't and that is why this system is flawed. Do we have better alternatives at the present moment? I don't, you don't (I assume) and so we compromise. 

Science is an understanding of the current world that is continuously evolving and adapting as new information completes the picture. The acceptance of scientific results as a consequence of peer review does not constitute a truth per se until it is proven again and again that it works. It's just a first step in the supposedly right direction, a temporary truth. If the scientific community accepts something as truth, but that something doesn't work in the end, then it stops being accepted as truth, it is revised and fixed. 
 
Quote:two things honestly you don't know what you will need till he gives it to you.. Maybe you need stage 4 butt cancer with nothing doctors can do at this point but make you comfortable then wake up the next day without a trace. or maybe you need to be in a plane crash where 200 people die and you are the only one who lives. Or maybe you need to spend a night in literal hell. (I do not recommend that one) Or maybe you need to win the lottery.. My suggestion is try and open your mind, and not demand God try and fit in this little crappy box you designed..

Two what if God did exactly that? what if God turned a measure (Say a 1 ft squared @ 14.7psig/sea level air) of oxygen and nitrogen into gold.. would you be able to see
those atoms to verify? Got to remember there is going to be a hella mass differential between air and gold. meaning you would probably have to pull all the atoms air out of 10 square miles and condense them down to a tiny nugget.. unless he left you in, and allowed the vacuum stand there by killing everything/having them implode. how would you know someone did not just slight of hand make a nugget appear? I could literally make what you want to see happen, and I am not god.

Again seek him on his terms allow him to work in your life, he more than you knows what you need.

but again bI can produce the net effect as you on your person do not have the ability to verify what you are asking.
So much misinformation. Here, I prepared an antidote to your ignorance:
1) What you would commonly call "a miracle", as in suddenly being cured of severe illness or surviving a plane crash are again statistics. The survivors in a plane crash are not the "blessed" ones, they are the outliers in a guass bell curve. There is no evidence at all of it being the act of God. It is what YOU believe it to be. You seem to focus too much on the one who survived, ignoring the 199 who died. That is cherry picking.
2) A mol of air is about 25L at room temperature and corresponds to circa 29g. Taking out of the picture energy release from the new bonding/unbonding, 25L of air will produce circa 29g of gold. For the record, 25L is about 1/3 of your volume. If God locally created a vacuum to remove those 25L, the nearby air would instantly be pulled back in to re-equilibrate the system. 10 square miles of air? You'd create a city of gold. You don't even know what you are talking about. Secondly, he can perform this trick in our institute, where we have the machines to reveal the emissions of electromagnetic waves or to inspect a material crystalline nature. If you want I can lay down a precise plan on how to test mr God powers, but that wouldn't satisfy you either because we have to look for God on "his terms". 

Quote:Again this is an example of God on your terms. The God of the bible demand you seek him on his terms, he will not meet you on yours. Otherwise he would be the God of your creation and not the God of creation meaning he is the first and last word on how things will be done.
Back to square 1. Invisible, intangible and silent individual demanding I seek him. The nothingness calling out for me without actually calling.

Quote:It happened for me. but again I am not you. If you demand God xyz I can promise even if he xyz for me you will be left in silence. As this is not how he said approach him. Again if There was a protocol to meet the queen or obama do you think you would have a chance to meet them on your terms bypassing all the things they need you to do to qualify to meet them? Why then would a being infinatly more powerful be then expected to do parlor tricks for you bypassing what he has demanded from us?
And again you compare God to Obama and the queen lol. Are you wasting my time on purpose or something? I've already addressed this: Obama and the queen are REAL. They are THERE, you can TOUCH them, you can SEE them, be it live or on tv, you can watch videos of them, you can HEAR them, you could even feel their WARMTH if you got to shake hands at some public encounter and, even tho it's not to my taste, you could TASTE them (ugh). And if you were that determined to ascertain their existence, you could make a blitz, tackle on the guards and risk jail to interact with them personally. They may ignore you, just like the president of our institute ignores us, but we know he's there, he's visited sometimes, I've heard it at a conference, he exists. Can you see the MOST IMPORTANT difference? All these individuals, they EXIST. They are FACTUAL, REAL. I hope you didn't miss the point this time.

Quote:you think too highly of yourself/ too proud. God is not like you even if he can or decided to use every day things to accomplish his will. what makes God different what makes God god and not like you? the ability to put his will his power into the world and it become everyday.
The ability to put his will and power in the world everyday. Can you provide factual evidence to this?

Quote:again you miss the point to champion science. What I said is the criminal justice system using eyewitness testimony more times than not gets it right, using eyewitness testimony as a legit source of proof and evidence, even if science fails more times than not refusing to except the same measure of proof.
And again you compare apples to oranges. Why are you so fixated with the justice system, which is an imperfect set of rules that changes depending on the state you are in, and which is based on something that is just the least evil because otherwise you'd compromise the freedom of everyone? They are DIFFERENT. And then you go on about how the justice system guesses right most of the time while science is often wrong? WhaT? My eyes are bleeding. If God exists and I have indeed to repent for my sins, they you have to repent as well for the titanic amounts of bullshit you are vomiting.

Quote:Are you 10? or do you think I am still a retard to chase you down this broken line of reasoning?? Enstein Energy to mass equation does not apply sport. I gave an answer that has nothing to do with multiplying anything twice the speed of light which didn't Einstein himself say was not possible?
WHAT? For crying out loud, Einstein energy to mass equation does not apply? Einstein himself says it's not possible? Then that nuclear plant over there must have been running on black magic for years. Dude, what the actual fuck are you saying, are you for real? You either skipped the past 3 centuries of technological advances or I don't really know anymore. Here please, take this antidote, it will cure the illness called ignorance that is defiling your body and soul:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80...quivalence
https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-po...2-meaning/
http://nstacommunities.org/blog/2016/12/...nd-fusion/
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014...y-alok-jha
http://www.emc2-explained.info/Emc2/Fiss...DkLvFVKiUk
https://www.quora.com/How-is-e-mc2-appli...ower-plant

After you purify yourself, go back and read what you said: a mustard seed. You measured faith with "a mustard of seed". I asked you "what do you mean by that? Are you measuring faith in terms of the mass of the seed or in terms of energy associated to that seed?"
Reflect on what you said. What the fuck kind of unit of measure is "a mustard seed"? Is that how you measure faith? Can faith be measured at all? Can you weigh it? Either stop speaking in riddles or reap what you sow.

Quote:ok let use your gambling example. you say it is possible to roll a six one time out of 100.. I have been rolling 6s for the last 25 years. again I from the beginning have said if this where a one or two time thing.. it is possible it is just a matter of luck, but again 20+++ years of this is no longer luck. You can not luck your way into a patent, you can not luck you way into a company that does national sales and sustain all of this.. How is it not God after so long?
This statement alone speaks volumes, but let's go in order:
1) Are you sure that all you've been getting are 6s? Was your wife's addiction a 6 too? Are you sure you aren't just overlooking the avalanche of 1s and 2s and just focusing on the 6s? You yourself said that your life was full of hardships even after you got your "promises" fulfilled, and that you still have to endure something from time to time. Aren't you just perceiving it that way?
2) And for the record, yes, it is possible to score 100 times out of 100 a 6. There is no restriction saying that it is impossible. The outliers of a bell curve are rarer but they exist. I think you are just mistaking probability and odds with divine intervention, associating your "luck" to it and convincing yourself "it must be it, it can't be I'm this lucky". From your point of view then Dan Bilzerian must be an archangel.

Quote:tell that to my dad my uncle my cousins and even one of my sisters. want and hard work mean shite.


Since it seems you missed my point, I'll put in bold the keyword

Also in life, if you want something badly, you'll do everything to get that something and eventually you get it. That's how you get stuff done in real life. If I want to go somewhere, I'll stress my boss until she's convinced to send me there. If I want to publish a paper in a renown journal, I'll accept all the crap suggestions the editor requires of me until I publish it. If you want to get a job so bad, you'll find it. I obtained pretty much everything I reasonably wanted in life, and it wasn't because of miracles or because some entity helped me. I insisted and insisted and the circumstances were favourable enough until it statistically became a thing. With each attempt I just pushed the odds. That's called determination, perseverance and well, "luck". In all of this I never asked god anything. I did it on my own and I was lucky enough.

Quote: And I would simply find a employee happy working where they are at.
"Go somewhere" meant as "pay me the travel expenses to go in this place for this conference or for this collaboration", not to change my workplace lol. My job can involve a lot of travelling and I like travelling, so I often take the chance to.

Quote:then why not have him simply write the paper and use your name? if someone is allowed to take your core idea and change it, then it is not yours. If an edditor wants a book paper writen on a certain subject then let him right it.
Lol, from your reply I understand you don't know how it works. When you submit your paper to a journal, it goes under peer review and even after it has passed the review, the editor will still make comments, mostly about the "appearance" of your work. Some editors are particularly annoying and nagging and make pointless or timewasting remarks such as "scale down this picture" or "put grids everywhere even if messy" or "cite recent works of my journal too". Not any of these comments magically turn into "let me rewrite your paper". You seem to have a really warped view of the scientific community.

Quote:you may find something but simply wanting a job does not give you the job you want! I have worked a lot of crappy jobs, and I work each and every sigle one of them with all that i has and for the most part my efforts meant nothing. I was often there to fill a role till that role was no longer needed to be filled.
Obviously. Wanting meant as "doing all the things needed to increase the odds to get that something". Afterall, will in itself is nothing if it's not backed up by power, power meant as physically making things happen.

Quote:There is a feeling of being outside but the 'fire itself refer to the tar like blackness that consumes or tears at your being. it is the destruction form and the emotional response it brings. Fire consumes the physical while hell fire destroys or burns any part of creation which i guess includes love as I remember think it could feel my sanity going as well.
I guess it's something you can't understand until you "feel" it, I suppose, as from your description I can't really grasp what it'd mean. I've gone as far as depriving and desensetizing myself from emotions and feelings, down the road of apathy and anhedonia and all in all, it wasn't too bad.

Quote:he knows more than I do, which is not saying much but at the same time there is nothing I've asked that I do not get an answer for.
You reminded me of how I used to see teachers. When I was a kid I asked them questions and they would always provide me with answers. I created this warped idea that teachers and professors knew everything of their subjects and were like grandmasters. As I grew and started learning the same things as them and even surpassing them to the point the student/teacher position had reversed, I realized just how everyone knows so little. You could say I saw teachers as gods, but my idea was warped. They didn't know anything, I just knew too little.

Quote:Third embodiment of God. God is a title and not a name. As in God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the third deity in the God head. The Spirit has been tasked as our personal connection with the Father.
This was discussed in another thread  (Yes, I lurk the forums a lot even though I'm mainly posting in here) and I want to clarify a thing: are the holy spirit, God and Christ 3 separate, distinct entities? As in, there is nothing actually uniting them?

Quote:thess 5:21 tells us to question everything and to hold on to what is good. this does not mean question only the questionable but to also question the foundational.
What do you mean to "hold on what is good"? What is good? And questioning the foundational, does it mean to question the very existence, that is this perceived physical reality (eg, maybe we are brains in a bathtub kind of thing a la matrix?)

Quote:[Image: hehe.gif] just.. IDK God.
But he didn't identify himself, so how do I know it's him? The nothingness called out for me without calling me out.

Quote:again do this with anyone in authority and see if they will show up for you, nor would you expect them too.. yet a being who's power and authority exceed anyone you can think of in authority you expect to come and bow before your demands?!?! Honestly if you demanded that I do anything for you I'd tell you to buzz off. However given the right circumstance I might be inclined to help you anyway I could.
And again, for the n'th time:
Obama and the queen are REAL. They are THERE, you can TOUCH them, you can SEE them, be it live or on tv, you can watch videos of them, you can HEAR them, you could even feel their WARMTH if you got to shake hands at some public encounter and, even tho it's not to my taste, you could TASTE them (ugh). And if you were that determined to ascertain their existence, you could make a blitz, tackle on the guards and risk jail to interact with them personally. They may ignore you, just like the president of our institute ignores us, but we know he's there, he's visited sometimes, I've heard it at a conference, he exists. Can you see the MOST IMPORTANT difference? All these individuals, they EXIST. They are FACTUAL, REAL. I hope you didn't miss the point this time.

Quote:su·pe·ri·or
/səˈpirēər/Submit
adjective
1.
higher in rank, status, or quality.
"a superior officer"
synonyms: higher-ranking, higher-level, senior, higher, higher-up, upper-level, upper, loftier

God created man, the creator is superior to the creation.

God is infinite in power and knowledge we are very finite.

God has the authority/power over life and death, man does not.

God offers man eternal life and love through forgiveness of sin. some men can even be bother to accept this atonement.

In this world in this realm might makes right. (like it or not) there is no a single consolidation of might and power than the alpha and omega.
No evidence for creation.
No evidence for his power or knowledge.
No evidence about his authority about anything.
No evidence about eternal life either.

They are all phrases taken out from a book and spelled out like they were truth. Then I will go on and say that 
1) Thousands of years ago, the Dark Lord Sauron had forged the One Ring to rule the other Rings of Power and corrupt those who wore them: nine for leaders of Men, three for Elves, and seven for 
2) The hobbit Frodo Baggins inherits the Ring from Bilbo Baggins, but Gandalf reports that Saruman has betrayed them and is now working to become a power in his own right. The Council decides that the Ring must be destroyed by sending it to the Fire of  in Mordor, where it was forged. Frodo takes this task upon himself. 
3) Elrond, with the advice of Gandalf, chooses companions for him. The Company of the Ring are nine in number: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli the DwarfLegolas the Elf, and the Man Boromir, son of Denethor, the Ruling Stewardof the land of .
4) Orcs sent by Saruman and Sauron kill Boromir. Gandalf convinces Treebeard to send an army of  to Théoden's aid. Gandalf brings an army of Rohirrim to Helm's Deep, and they defeat the Orcs,
5) Sauron sends a great army against Gondor. Gandalf arrives at Minas Tirith to warn Denethor of the attack, while Théoden musters the Rohirrim to ride to Gondor's aid. Minas Tirith is . Denethor is deceived by Sauron and falls into despair. He burns himself alive on a pyre
6) Aragorn leads an army of men from Gondor and Rohan to march on the Black Gate to distract Sauron from his true danger. His army is vastly outnumbered by the great might of Sauron
7) Frodo reaches the edge of the Cracks of Doom and Ring is destroyed, Sauron loses his power forever. All he created collapses, the Nazgûl perish.


Quote:Not what I said.. I said the more you are aware the cost of everything becomes more appearant. for wisdom for example. in order to gain wisdom God does not dispatch a angel to sprinkle magic angel flakes on your head and you wake up in the morning wise. Rather God send trial and hardship your way Say being married 7 to 8 year with an active herion addict makes you street and drug wise to where you can tell by the way someone approaches you whether or not they are trying to scam you...

After enduring such trials you learn it is better to seek contentment with God rather than try and tell God what you want.. you want money?!?! here' 10,000 hours of billiable labor you can do. You want God to turn gold out of the air? then what will you breathe? as it is again not a 1:1 exchange ratio. there is always a cost. When I pray I get what I want but always know something is also owed. I'd simply rather not owe for things that really don't make life better. If I am to work I would rather work at things like family wife kids ect.
So life experience is actually a trial of God, I see. Completely not flawed reasoning.
Also please, stop mentioning the gold thing, it just depresses me how you are trampling over chemistry.


Quote:glob.. what I am saying is if idk you have an urge to read the bible then until you read the bible that is far as you will go. if it means ask me 1000 questions then that means those questions need to be written out.. Or if you feel you need to stop doing meth and watching donkey porn then stop doing meth and watchin donkey porn. Kind do what God puts on your heart/things you know to be right.
So doing what I want to do in that moment is not my thought but some idea that God put in me? 


Quote:frankly it isn't for everyone honestly I would like to see all the self proclaimed nihilist and neutralist before the pit and have them choose then! Then we see what they have to say.. In truth conscious life is good simply because we are self directed member of creation. better to go where you want and do what you want than to be destroyed by hell fire.
because that is this point is the only option.
Eternal life or destruction by hell fire.
And I would like to see said pit.


Quote:but again without math without algebra without formal training of any sort. and again all instantaneously I was drawing as they where describing the problem. I was finished before they were done describing what they needed and what they tried. This was truly for me an out of the blue deal.
I gotta ask: how did you end up in whatever position you ended up that lets you draw circuits and makes your coworkers believe you as if you were chief engineer? It just sounds too surreal when you narrate this story, it's like some crucial information is being left out. I can't imagine some illiterate random coming to our institute and telling us how to change the parameters of our process to achieve better yields, and I can't imagine us taking his word for good and following his orders.

Quote:this was for me you will need this then this then that draw this draw that then that like 20 different componets then picked up a blue pe and draew all of the 12 vdc connections. then red for 24 vdc then gree for 48vdc then orange for 230 3p 60 hz. no thouht no guessing just draw the pics I was being shown and connect the dots.

ask anyone here that's me! As I said idiot savant or God.. 

but you also have to consider the whole business side again operating well beyond my scope, and spiritual incite. 


Quote:maybe.. and maybe 20 years lucky with the business as well.

Here's a line of thought.. intuitive or not idk.. but look at how you are trying to isolate and address each specific God intervened story I provide you with as a single one off event or something like the intuitive thinker thing.. but will not consider everything at once. Again if I had one story to tell it would be one thing but my whole life changed. we haven't even talked about all the health issues I have been spared from.
Not considering everything at once is exactly what YOU ARE NOT doing. Before you even said that you've been scoring 6s for the past 20y, when you actually told me of all the "trials" you were put in front of. You are either cherrypicking or flat out ignoring all the 1s and 2s and only want to see the 6s. I've already said before, your life just looks like a life: worse than some, better than others. Nothing special.

Quote:Just because we can identify addiction and how it works in the brain does not mean there is not a demon responsible for it. and the reason I say this is because when working with my wife I worked with hundreds of people all distinct personalities until they were under the influence of addiction and at that point they all share key common personality traits it was like they all became related or shared the same family or core values somehow. they all had the same stories they all shared the same lies they all stole from the same people. it's like they all gave control of their lives to the same intellect. Yes we can accurately predict and map addiction and chemically explain why and ever physiologically explain why, but again out labels do not exclude Spiritual influence.
And you have to understand that it does not mean there is a demon either. And as long as you don't prove with facts the existence of said demon, it remains a speculation, a thought that is not backed up by evidence. Again, it's your duty to demonstrate it exists, not our duty to demonstrate it doesn't. Because otherwise I could say that it's Sauron behind everything and you can't disprove it. Same reasoning.

Quote:the same can be said about the 'science of orgins' paleontology deep space astronomy and the whole host of theoretical works that can not be practically utilized. 
I think you confused astronomy with astrology Wink

Quote:So everything that ever was and will be in the universe was compressed into a basket ball size sphere? why cube why not polyhedron why not a 2 dimensional mass why not a bowling ball or better yet a massive super planet? and then what happened? just bang no reason/was too compressed to the oppsite happens. and everything appears. bother that is a god did it or the universe did it or the universe works in mysterious ways If I ever heard one!!! Meaning there is no difference in faith in saying big bang or god did it! how can you say one is better both are faith statements bruh!
I've already written a big paragraph and provided enough sources to scientific papers and ways to access locked up stuff, but you people seem to believe that scientists are some kind of black magic cult that "believes" in things like you do. The fact that you bring the term faith together with science says it all. For you the big bang theory is some fantasy story like your god, no wonder...

Quote:and again if an important person in this world will not meet you on your own terms then why expect God to meet you on your terms.. who are you to demand God perform tricks for you?
And again, said person exists while there is no evidence for the existence of God. Not a small difference you can so easily overlook, eh. You know, there is a difference between something that is "there" and something that is "not", even though this concept seems to elude you. You brush this particular aside as if it wasn't relevant lol.

If I received a mail by some self-proclaimed president of some country, I'd think it's just spam and ignore it. If it's indeed false, a scam, nothing happens. If it was true, then I'd have the FBI and CIA breaking in my office and taking me by force with a chopper to mr President. So far I didn't receive any mail or message from self proclaimed gods, neither was I taken by force to meet said God. Can you better see now why your comparisons make no sense?

Quote:Glob take GC out of the equasion and plug in huggy CL or me. The point is NOT WHO YOU ARE SPEAKING WITH!!!! BUT THE MESSAGE Read what I wrote again. If literal angel of God made himself know to you and had nothing to say to you he would literally be less of an angel if one of us brought you a message that cut you to your quick.

trying to get you to look outside the box in how the Holy Spirit sends messages to you.
You keep repeating this sentence and I still don't get what it means. The message contained in that blabber post was nonsense.

Quote:there is an initial panic of disolving into hell, then the oh, my God this panic is going to be forever... Then but I know I belong here because I do not fit in with he love in Heaven then it was I know I belong here but would I have done anything different if I had known the truth? Could I have been apart of that love, that was going to be the thing that ate my sanity.. I know I belong but did I need to be here was I truly evil? That part I did not know and that part is why I answer questions so that you know.. again the hell fire was sheer removal from clam rational thought an instant conversion to primal guttural responses that gave way to fore your mind to the forefront to try and think through this just to be crushed by the idea of infinity. once your sanity is gone then it really doesn't matter what happens to the rest of you as what makes you you is consumed by the fire. I think however this process of being consumed by the fire takes longer the more wicked you are.
I delved in psychology forums for a good amount of time to at least know the basic stuff. The anxious patterns you described here resonate a whole lot with panic attack racing thoughts. Just some food for thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_thoughts

Quote:So you would not work for anyone who did not serve your need to be the authority? maybe you could open up a coffee shop.
If they don't pay me or force me, then I don't serve anyone in general. Let alone serve the nothingness that demands I follow it lol.

Quote:Its a simple pattern. Find a hungry scientist 'fund' him to find whatever it is you need. They will always find proof, make people aware documentry or movie or even social media now, 'lobby' politicians/Pay them to make a stink change policy reap billions because of market shift.

repeat.

Here's the thing with "higher learning' Most people here on this web site will only accept information if it comes filter through certain sources we in school been trained to recognise that is why the 2016 campaign keep blaming hillary's non land slide victory to uneducated people. because all the indoctrinated pro clinton material was being provided by these accepted sources and she still lost. meaning dumb people were not smart enough to blindly believe everything we were being told. This structure of transmitting and receiving 'public knowledge' is ingrained into us by 'higher learning' facilities. Facilities that demand we think the same way that we reason the same way that demand we share common morality and values, and yes demand we hate anything not up to our standards. That is why anything with the 'science' frame work around it is believed as absolute truth. I was on board in 85 to 93, but then I saw what it was about. they took a product off the market that sold for .50 a pound and at the end of the production run because this country desperately needed a refrigerant that the one company who sponsored the global initiative who found the hole in the OZone who sold the old stuff and produced the new, was able to sell a .50 12 oz can for 300.00 then sell the new stuff for 150.00

Now FF 20 year and the patents have now run out on the new stuff that sell for 6.00 a 12 oz can just like the patents on the old stuff ran out in 93. Now the new stuff has been found to dramatically increases the global warming effect and must now also be bann so we can not pay 400 to 600 dollars for a 12 oz can of refrigerant.

Duponte scientist said it it must be true.. 

Did you watch the movie the fox catcher? it was about how f-ing crazy the CEO of duponte was in the 1980's but also how smart and the fact he had so much money he literally owned everythig around him. This is his scam played out by governments now.
As I said, I think you have to be "in it" to be able to properly filter the truth, and this is why I took on chemistry/physics/math classes. But even though scientific phenomenons are speculated upon by governments, it doesn't mean they are not true. Lead gasoline was banished because it was economically not convenient, but it's also true it was poisonous. Global warming was stressed upon a lot, somewhat exaggeratedly, but it's still true, it's been that way since forever. 

Even if the powerups use science to their convenience, the data produced are still there. What the gov does is attach "meanings" to it, but the scientific data are neutral. You are able to fly by planes thanks to science, you are able to communicate instantly with someone on the other side of the planet thanks to science, you can cool down your food with a refrigerator thanks to science. It works. Then if society wants you to believe that microwaves can kill you and other shit like then it's another issue. But science is not religion. You don't need to believe in it to receive God. Planes will fly even if you don't believe that g = 9.81 m/s2. If you throw salted water on a laptop you'll short circuit it even if you don't believe in salt. Science doesn't care about what you believe, it works independently and if your beliefs are misplaced (which includes wrong theories that are modified at a later time), you'll eventually realize this on your own and correct them.

Quote:Give a monkey a gun and if he shoots someone it is not the monkey's fault. In turn give a crack head a million dollars and he OD's in a week you indeed killed him. Someone like that has no internal control anymore the demon of addiction has taken control, and it will make them use till the money or their breath runs out.
So now you compare monkeys to humans. But didn't you say before that only the most recent humans (6k years ago) are the "blessed ones" and that anything that came before, including humanoids and monkeys, don't have a soul and aren't comparable to the actual humans? I don't forget the stuff you say. Also who are you to decide who has control and who hasn't? If his willpower is strong enough and you want to put him through one of your godly trials, then it's fair to give him the same money and see how it evolves. Then again with demons eh...

Quote:On the simple side it is praying "Dear lord I know I am a sinner/broken your laws, and I know I will continue to do so for the rest of my life however I ask that you forgive me of my sins again you and my fellow man any way. Then as a start you must live out this example of forgiving those who sin against you. This make take a while if you have an a-hole father as I do, but over time try and forgive those as if it where you who needed forgivness. the rest will come over time. Meaning trying to resist or abstaining from sin will be something you will eventually want to do even if you can't. That is call repentance. where you internally hate sin even if you are still tied to it. Paul explains this in much better detail in romans chapters 6,7 and 8
As someone who doesn't believe in sins and whatever, of course all of this sounds as unnecessary self-imposed limitations and punishment, but I guess that in the scope of this religion it has its place... Perhaps. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:and you tested the god you found and got back total silence. so then you rebuild have that verion of God tested and you rebuild. not every verion will be 100% wrong, so you hold on to what is right and rebuild everything else. I'd say in side a year you could have a good working understanding of Who god is and how he works.
And how do you know what is "right"? Just a hunch?

Quote:we are supposed to fail alot. because what we are doing is pealing away the personal I want a god who does... and are left with the God described in scripture. 
So it's indeed bad instructables.

Quote:Not free will (that is a late 1200 greek construct/philosophy but to give us choice yes the bible/ God sees us as slaves to him or sin but even slaves had choice. The tree was choice to be in (not the city of heaven but to be in his presence/heaven or to serve a master of sin who promises complete freedom but only dilivers pain and suffering. Imagine that God created Adam and eve right after the earth was formed 100 bazzillion years or go or whatever 'science says now.' and he planted the seeds that would later become the oceans land animals plants birds and even man outside the garden. But inside the garden God created a paradise that would resemble what the world would evolve into about (6000 or so years ago) Why then? because God knew that was when the fall was going to be. Yes he would loose Adam and eve but because he planted those seeds the people from the garden would have a world and better yet a people to bless with souls when their kids and their kids kids had children. To one day populate the world with people with souls. So that the may all experience sin. So when it came time to make the choice Eve made (but in reverse/she was alive with God and died, and we in sin are dead to God but choose to live) we would not be courious about sin and could choose (if we chose God) without question or reservation. We could enter heaven and have our sin curiosity quota filled.

So why do this and why not make a race of people in heaven? He did that already with the angels. and over 1/3 of them fell surcombing to sin. lucifer's temptation being too great. So it is written we will live in a place with God for 1000 years. (all of the saved) then satan will be let loose one more time to temp the saved one more time to give those who changed their minds about serving God an way out. Then he and those who want to go with him will be seal in hell for ever. Again it is and it always is about choosing To be with God.

Adam and Eve were given this choice created to be immortal and living with God potentially for billions if not trillions of years before temptation ate them alive, to the point they died from their imortal lives and was given over to the pain and suffering of life outside the garden. This life for us is about the same choice, and we will get a third chance in the next. In short God wants to ensure those who seek to spend eternity with him want to be there under his rule and grace. because eternity is a long long time.
As someone who makes freedom one of his fundamental values, it just defies my intrinsic nature to accept slavery. If the choice we are put in front is indeed to either be God's eternal slaves or have complete freedom in a temporary world, that I'd chose the latter. I'd consciously choose the latter.

Quote:I think you don't get that it was the plan all along for the fall. why else plant man outsie the garden?

[snip]

The universe stretches out forever we have forever... I believe the sons those who work as slaves and are trusted and becomes sons get to go out and each given to his ability.. to one an asteroid maybe to another a planet to develop or maybe to another a whole region of space.. or maybe we are given star ships and told to go explore. The bible does not say much but I know there is a reason for an infinite universe and an infinity amount of time to go and do. If adam and eve lasted billions of years in 2/3 the size of the USA how much more will there be for us to do and accomplish?
What I wonder is why God wants eternal slaves. What for? Once everyone makes it to heaven, what does he need slaves for? It just makes no sense. It's not like he has a war to fight to warrant an army of slaves. Also, if he's so allmighty and powerful as it's claimed, what does he need slaves for? Can't he make everything on his own anyways? What's the point?

Quote:Analogy about zombies
I think you re-created the same scenario without even realizing it. There is indeed one particular that you omitted: who created and spread the virus to begin with?

If you include that information, then you have a God who created and spread a virus that infected everyone, and then he offered a cure for it. It's what some nasty pharmacy could do, lol. Spread a illness and then sell the cure.
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Messages In This Thread
How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by ignoramus - December 18, 2018 at 9:24 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Fireball - December 18, 2018 at 10:29 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by arewethereyet - December 18, 2018 at 10:49 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 18, 2018 at 11:00 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by ignoramus - December 18, 2018 at 11:03 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 18, 2018 at 11:04 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by brewer - December 18, 2018 at 11:34 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by no one - December 18, 2018 at 11:35 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by ignoramus - December 19, 2018 at 12:23 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jackalope - December 18, 2018 at 11:54 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by tackattack - December 19, 2018 at 2:20 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Godscreated - December 19, 2018 at 3:34 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Maketakunai - December 19, 2018 at 7:37 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Fake Messiah - December 20, 2018 at 12:28 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Pat Mustard - December 19, 2018 at 9:03 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Angrboda - December 19, 2018 at 10:35 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 19, 2018 at 3:40 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 5:05 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 19, 2018 at 6:17 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 7:00 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 19, 2018 at 8:26 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 10:13 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 20, 2018 at 5:56 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - December 21, 2018 at 4:49 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 22, 2018 at 5:06 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Godscreated - December 20, 2018 at 4:08 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Maketakunai - December 20, 2018 at 8:09 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by ignoramus - December 19, 2018 at 4:30 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 10:15 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 19, 2018 at 11:36 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 11:45 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Angrboda - December 19, 2018 at 12:02 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Fake Messiah - December 19, 2018 at 7:34 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 10:07 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 19, 2018 at 10:11 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 12:05 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 12:32 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - December 19, 2018 at 3:37 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Dr H - December 19, 2018 at 5:07 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by sdelsolray - December 19, 2018 at 9:59 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by ignoramus - December 19, 2018 at 10:22 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 12:38 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Angrboda - December 20, 2018 at 2:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - December 20, 2018 at 2:38 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Angrboda - December 21, 2018 at 9:25 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Cod - December 20, 2018 at 5:28 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Mister Agenda - December 21, 2018 at 10:35 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - December 21, 2018 at 9:17 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 2, 2019 at 6:58 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 3, 2019 at 12:13 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 1, 2019 at 12:11 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 6, 2019 at 12:49 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 7, 2019 at 6:33 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Nay_Sayer - January 7, 2019 at 6:40 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 8, 2019 at 11:33 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Nay_Sayer - January 9, 2019 at 2:34 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 8, 2019 at 8:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 8, 2019 at 8:15 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 10, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 11, 2019 at 10:13 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - January 11, 2019 at 11:20 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 11, 2019 at 11:57 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - January 11, 2019 at 12:10 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 11, 2019 at 12:16 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 11, 2019 at 12:35 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - January 11, 2019 at 6:29 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Brian37 - January 11, 2019 at 6:42 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - January 11, 2019 at 6:51 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 11, 2019 at 8:23 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by T0 Th3 M4X - January 11, 2019 at 9:06 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 11, 2019 at 12:45 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Brian37 - January 11, 2019 at 4:11 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 11, 2019 at 3:54 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 11, 2019 at 4:56 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 14, 2019 at 11:53 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 11, 2019 at 2:23 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 11, 2019 at 10:15 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 14, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 15, 2019 at 8:51 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 15, 2019 at 2:15 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 15, 2019 at 5:23 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 16, 2019 at 12:28 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 15, 2019 at 11:39 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Acrobat - January 15, 2019 at 12:21 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 15, 2019 at 3:07 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 16, 2019 at 10:58 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 15, 2019 at 5:41 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 15, 2019 at 8:30 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 15, 2019 at 8:43 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 15, 2019 at 8:56 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 15, 2019 at 8:59 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 15, 2019 at 9:50 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Jehanne - January 15, 2019 at 10:10 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 15, 2019 at 9:59 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 16, 2019 at 3:29 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 16, 2019 at 5:27 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 16, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 21, 2019 at 3:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 16, 2019 at 6:51 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 17, 2019 at 2:20 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 21, 2019 at 12:53 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 24, 2019 at 1:05 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 29, 2019 at 11:15 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 17, 2019 at 2:45 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 21, 2019 at 5:30 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 22, 2019 at 11:13 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 22, 2019 at 2:12 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 23, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - January 24, 2019 at 7:48 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Duty - January 22, 2019 at 3:02 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 23, 2019 at 4:19 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 24, 2019 at 10:25 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 29, 2019 at 3:51 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 29, 2019 at 2:49 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 29, 2019 at 4:04 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 29, 2019 at 4:35 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 30, 2019 at 11:03 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 30, 2019 at 1:14 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Scientia - January 30, 2019 at 3:12 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Drich - January 31, 2019 at 11:30 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Macoleco - January 30, 2019 at 9:44 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by snowtracks - January 30, 2019 at 11:38 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Dr H - February 6, 2019 at 8:39 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by snowtracks - February 6, 2019 at 11:54 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - February 7, 2019 at 8:52 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Dr H - February 7, 2019 at 4:15 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by snowtracks - February 7, 2019 at 4:30 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Dr H - February 8, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by snowtracks - February 8, 2019 at 9:27 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by fredd bear - February 19, 2019 at 11:09 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by polymath257 - February 9, 2019 at 5:42 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by snowtracks - February 16, 2019 at 12:08 am
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by GODZILLA - February 3, 2019 at 4:08 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by brewer - February 8, 2019 at 9:43 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Sal - February 8, 2019 at 10:28 pm
RE: How to discuss religion with believers? - by Sarakan - February 19, 2019 at 7:33 am

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