How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

I don't know why you keep bringing in society. We are talking about science, something neutral regulated by neutral formulas and equations, and you want to compare it with some man-made compromise/truce of sort. Moreover not the entire world works on society , just to say, while math, physics and chemistry are the same in every corner for the universe. It's apples and oranges.

Because as I pointed out the first time God is not a science experiment and will never be found there. God by definition is not apart of the tangible world which science is limited to. So then we must look for other equally viable forms of evidence. This comes in certified testimony. which more closely resembles the stated purpose of Christians offering their own testimony, in that they share how God has worked in their life and offer the same if not more to the non believer.
Science is a single tool in our tool box of life it is like a hammer, yes hammers can be used for a great number of things but is not the tool of choice in every situation, there are even times when hammers are the wrong/counterproductive tool.

It needs to be perfect, because otherwise it's flawed. Also again, you are being unclear about what the "mustard seed" exactly means.

That's crap.. I've said over and over all you need is the honesty to openly read the bible and seek out God. In doing so you will see a set of instructions (there are several sets of directions, but they will not stand out to you till later) simply follow the directions that stand out.

For example you want proof the proof of god is in the Holy Spirit so in reading the bible you will come across a specific set of direction on how to obtain a measure of the Holy Spirit, follow said direction to a T and God literally promises to move heaven and earth to full fill this promise. How many times Have I said this? What do you think Ask Seek Knock is all about? Luke 11 frames the idea here.

Now let's switch to the justice system. If you find out that the culprit of a crime committed in the 800's was X and not Y, how do you correct it? You can't and that is why this system is flawed. Do we have better alternatives at the present moment? I don't, you don't (I assume) and so we compromise. 

never heard of postimus exoneration? It is where reparations are made to the family of one who has been wrongfully imprisoned. 800 years ago we had the dark ages and crusades. so then the power and morality of the church made people in the holy land out to be child eating demons and women witches. So then how did we correct this 800 years later? we refer to the time where the church rule the planet the dark ages because of the corruption and thing like the crusades and witch trials. or did you thin people living in the dark ages thought they were living in the dark ages? no they thought they were living in post modern times.

two things honestly you don't know what you will need till he gives it to you.. Maybe you need stage 4 butt cancer with nothing doctors can do at this point but make you comfortable then wake up the next day without a trace. or maybe you need to be in a plane crash where 200 people die and you are the only one who lives. Or maybe you need to spend a night in literal hell. (I do not recommend that one) Or maybe you need to win the lottery.. My suggestion is try and open your mind, and not demand God try and fit in this little crappy box you designed..

Two what if God did exactly that? what if God turned a measure (Say a 1 ft squared @ 14.7psig/sea level air) of oxygen and nitrogen into gold.. would you be able to see
those atoms to verify? Got to remember there is going to be a hella mass differential between air and gold. meaning you would probably have to pull all the atoms air out of 10 square miles and condense them down to a tiny nugget.. unless he left you in, and allowed the vacuum stand there by killing everything/having them implode. how would you know someone did not just slight of hand make a nugget appear? I could literally make what you want to see happen, and I am not god.

Again seek him on his terms allow him to work in your life, he more than you knows what you need.

but again bI can produce the net effect as you on your person do not have the ability to verify what you are asking.

So much misinformation. Here, I prepared an antidote to your ignorance:
1) What you would commonly call "a miracle", as in suddenly being cured of severe illness or surviving a plane crash are again statistics. The survivors in a plane crash are not the "blessed" ones, they are the outliers in a guass bell curve.   MAybe survive a plane crash or stage 4 cancer then speak.

There is no evidence at all of it being the act of God.

when you follow truth beyond anything anyone can do for you and you are still committed, but at the need help and this truth has you in a place where there is nothing anyone can do, yet you call out to God and God answers.. That is the proof you are looking for even if it is not enough for a peer reviewed journal.

One of the thing that made me search for truth was while in high school my shop teacher ( the man who showed me how to mop like a 20 year veteran) was pull out of class on friday for a heart attack. He went in and they scanned him and it show he needed a triple by pass. His heart doctor scheduled the surgery for the next available OR and He prayed to God " dear lord if you want me to keep preaching and working with the kids at school I'm gonna need a strong heart to do this. He said he could feel the blockage being pulled out and strength return. he felt so good he got out of bed and started to put his cloths back on, they stopped them they argued and he consented to another scan and this time it was completely clear.

Again this happened before I knew anything of God at the time I was full on atheist beating up christians for bringing their bibles to school.. This made me want to know the truth no matter where it lead me.

When you cite something as obscure as a gauss bell curve as reason to doubt, you are truly showing a closed mind. Because you are not willing to accept ANYTHING God has ever done for people as proof of his existence. If and when it is you ( I went though an AIDs scare a Non Hodgkin lymphoma (2 solid years of testing and a blood test every year.) scare and a literal burst appendix (never removed still in me) You don't care where your place is on a Gauss bell curb. again you narrow minded thinking has you look at each individual instance as a stand alone event. but none of us live a 1 event life. You must take the sum total of 25 years of God augmented life and reconcile all of it, not just one event and treat each like a one off. as God works every single day. What if you were privy to 2 to 10 literally miraculous events every day. for 25 years? Would you still look at every event individually and explain each away on their own? or would you be brave enough to take everything into consideration and view it as a whole?

It is what YOU believe it to be. You seem to focus too much on the one who survived, ignoring the 199 who died. That is cherry picking.

Because if I survived my story continues while the rest ends.. seriously don't douche out on me here. why would anyone focus on the luck or post plane crash events of a guy who dies in a plane crash? Look how absurd you reasoning has become in order to fit this stupid bell curb. It is said for those who have a task to full fill for God, they are untouchable. If I survived then My task is simply not complete. Nothing cherry picked you just have the wrong assumption that all are protected in the same way.

2) A mol of air is about 25L at room temperature and corresponds to circa 29g. Taking out of the picture energy release from the new bonding/unbonding, 25L of air will produce circa 29g of gold. For the record, 25L is about 1/3 of your volume. If God locally created a vacuum to remove those 25L, the nearby air would instantly be pulled back in to re-equilibrate the system. 10 square miles of air? You'd create a city of gold. You don't even know what you are talking about. Secondly, he can perform this trick in our institute, where we have the machines to reveal the emissions of electromagnetic waves or to inspect a material crystalline nature. If you want I can lay down a precise plan on how to test mr God powers, but that wouldn't satisfy you either because we have to look for God on "his terms". 

 no.. sorry sport.. here we 'proof our work by providing references and support material we don't pretend to just know otherwise you can be made the fool when someone asks for supporting material or simply provides the material they have that blows you out of the water.

Yes a mol of air is  28.9647 g/mol.

but let say the atomic weight for a single molecule of air is 30.0000u for simple math sake

as the atomic weight of oxy is 15.9999u

https://www.google.com/search?q=mol+mass...e&ie=UTF-8

atomic weight of an atom of nitrogen is: 14.0067 u

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AJZ...UZ4towQyRg

( which also leaves room for argon and the other stuff)

but the atomic weight of gold is a little bit heavier.. little bit because we are dealing with atomic weight, but apples to apples it is a hellva lot heavier.

Au=196.9665690 u
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molec...d_679.html

can you see that three atoms that roughly make up air (remember we cheated and rounded up to 30) is far lighter than just one ATOM of gold. if fact 30 air molecules of air a needed or 90 atoms of the three primary air components are needed to equate the density of just 1 gold atom. That means in mass there is a 90:1 ratio needed of air to just one unit of gold..

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon..

Now let put your small box mind that could not understand this simple equation but call me stupid inside your house or building at work when you challenge God to do this. and he says sure let us show this monkey man who and what God is despite what others may have to go through.. and turn air into a ton of gold..

Now..
Riddle me this, does the whole of your house contain enough volume of aire to satifify the 90 to 1 ratio of air needed? Meaning if I pull a hard vacuum on your house (30hg)could i displace 90 tons of the atoms needed for your request???

What if God kept your house sealed and from implosion. because truly as you missed my point before You have no way of making sure air was being converted into gold otherwise.. I in slight of hand could turn air into gold. The only way you could see or know a atomic change was happening is if you were caught up in said vacuum.. Which would ironically (as your last breath was being pulled from your lungs) be the proof you needed lest the whole 'test' be for nothing.

So quick to flash your flare you missed the whole point completely.

Again this is an example of God on your terms. The God of the bible demand you seek him on his terms, he will not meet you on yours. Otherwise he would be the God of your creation and not the God of creation meaning he is the first and last word on how things will be done.

Back to square 1. Invisible, intangible and silent individual demanding I seek him. The nothingness calling out for me without actually calling.

I don't understand the problem you are making here, we as human being do this all the f-ing time in real life. He mr. can you help me find my dog his name is fred... what would be the first thing you did if you agreed? you'd call out into the darkness in earnest looking for a dog for a kid who had nothing but an empty leash.

Why is this a leap? you are not asked to do this publicly. you are not asked to send in money, you are not asked to stop your porn pot and pizza night, all that is required is to seek the truth of God and allow him to provide you with absolutely everything you need to establish and maintain a working relationship.

And again you compare God to Obama and the queen lol. Are you wasting my time on purpose or something? I've already addressed this: Obama and the queen are REAL. They are THERE, you can TOUCH them, you can SEE them, be it live or on tv, you can watch videos of them, you can HEAR them, you could even feel their WARMTH if you got to shake hands at some public encounter and, even tho it's not to my taste, you could TASTE them (ugh). And if you were that determined to ascertain their existence, you could make a blitz, tackle on the guards and risk jail to interact with them personally. They may ignore you, just like the president of our institute ignores us, but we know he's there, he's visited sometimes, I've heard it at a conference, he exists. Can you see the MOST IMPORTANT difference? All these individuals, they EXIST. They are FACTUAL, REAL. I hope you didn't miss the point this time.

maybe you missed before, but have you touched the queen? have you physically stood before obama? you hear of them through first person accounts just like you hear of God you see photos and painting of them. To you mr. nobody the queen and obama are a point of faith/belief not that far off from God. The real difference is that God promises to close that Gap if you seek him out. but again that is his terms not your own. Obama and the queen will never see you, even if you did follow their protocol. Ironically you are closer to seeing God and being able to personally vett him than personally vett people in whom you deem 'real.'

So stop copping out here when the point I make is not about realism but about approaching a person in authority. you have to be smart enough to know this, so why cop out? If the queen will not see you on your terms then why would one greater than the queen in power and authority see you on your terms if the queen will not gift you gold why in hell would God almighty do a magic trick and gift you gold. You are intentionally tainting the well here. if God say abc you demand he 123. You must understand that if God bends to your will he is not God. or is that what you want? a not so scary version of God? something you have final say in? something that can't hurt you if you give in?

you think too highly of yourself/ too proud. God is not like you even if he can or decided to use every day things to accomplish his will. what makes God different what makes God god and not like you? the ability to put his will his power into the world and it become everyday.

The ability to put his will and power in the world everyday. Can you provide factual evidence to this?

yes absolutely I have 25 years of this personal attention, but you want to chop my examples up isolate them and call 25 + years of experience with God 9130+ days (leap days included) as 9130+ days of individual counts of coincidence so none of them count right?

Again what he has given me is offered to you. If you do not think God can be with you and let you know he is there every single day, then call him on his promise by doing what little that is asked.

again you miss the point to champion science. What I said is the criminal justice system using eyewitness testimony more times than not gets it right, using eyewitness testimony as a legit source of proof and evidence, even if science fails more times than not refusing to except the same measure of proof.

And again you compare apples to oranges. Why are you so fixated with the justice system, which is an imperfect set of rules that changes depending on the state you are in, and which is based on something that is just the least evil because otherwise you'd compromise the freedom of everyone? They are DIFFERENT. And then you go on about how the justice system guesses right most of the time while science is often wrong? WhaT? My eyes are bleeding. If God exists and I have indeed to repent for my sins, they you have to repent as well for the titanic amounts of bullshit you are vomiting.

what I have pointed out is God's apples is inline with the criminal justice system and science's orange is constructed in such away to ignore apples in criminal law as well as God himself. So why look for God in a system devoid of apples when that is what you are looking for. The folly here is your in thinking science can or is designed to encapsulate everything. how much science is needed in literature? how much science is needed in the act of love? how much science is needed in criminal justice? the same is true with God. why would any one assume science is needed to identify God? NOTHING in what God has ever said includes this word science. So what dumb ass keeps insisting that science is needed to find God? Why?

Are you 10? or do you think I am still a retard to chase you down this broken line of reasoning?? Enstein Energy to mass equation does not apply sport. I gave an answer that has nothing to do with multiplying anything twice the speed of light which didn't Einstein himself say was not possible?

WHAT? For crying out loud, Einstein energy to mass equation does not apply? Einstein himself says it's not possible? Then that nuclear plant over there must have been running on black magic for years. Dude, what the actual fuck are you saying, are you for real? You either skipped the past 3 centuries of technological advances or I don't really know anymore. Here please, take this antidote, it will cure the illness called ignorance that is defiling your body and soul:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80...quivalence
https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-po...2-meaning/
http://nstacommunities.org/blog/2016/12/...nd-fusion/
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014...y-alok-jha
http://www.emc2-explained.info/Emc2/Fiss...DkLvFVKiUk
https://www.quora.com/How-is-e-mc2-appli...ower-plant

After you purify yourself, go back and read what you said: a mustard seed. You measured faith with "a mustard of seed". I asked you "what do you mean by that? Are you measuring faith in terms of the mass of the seed or in terms of energy associated to that seed?"
Reflect on what you said. What the fuck kind of unit of measure is "a mustard seed"? Is that how you measure faith? Can faith be measured at all? Can you weigh it? Either stop speaking in riddles or reap what you sow.

Again... enough faith to Ask Seek and repeat (since knock is such a mysterious word you have to redefine the search parameters to make an insecure man's point (a point with a floursish of knoweledge as to overwhelm with your 'great and powerful oz mind..'... rather that ask a humble question.)
again luke 11 right after the lord prayer A/S/K for the holy Spirit.

This statement alone speaks volumes, but let's go in order:
1) Are you sure that all you've been getting are 6s? Was your wife's addiction a 6 too?

Looking back it is a 6+ I would not want to endure this again but it has bought us a  level of love trust and respect I don't think we would have known otherwise! Out of the 10 couples we got married with 3 others are still married we however are still best friends.

Are you sure you aren't just overlooking the avalanche of 1s and 2s and just focusing on the 6s? You yourself said that your life was full of hardships even after you got your "promises" fulfilled, and that you still have to endure something from time to time. Aren't you just perceiving it that way?

who do you think you are talking to I lived through this mess. a six brother is not always what you want a six simply shows consistency. who wants a six when you bet on 4 who wants a six when you bet odds. A six again is predictible and you know that if you are on board you will always win, however doubt on my part does set in from time to time but
I know if I stick with my 'six' it will workout in the end.

2) And for the record, yes, it is possible to score 100 times out of 100 a 6. There is no restriction saying that it is impossible. The outliers of a bell curve are rarer but they exist. I think you are just mistaking probability and odds with divine intervention, associating your "luck" to it and convincing yourself "it must be it, it can't be I'm this lucky". From your point of view then Dan Bilzerian must be an archangel.

says the guy who loves nobody loves nothing with nothing to live for..  to the guy who loves and is loved by a God to a degree I can not understand.. My question to you is what does your crutch in the law of averages buy you? let's say you right and i was just born at the right place at the right time... so why did my for 20 some odd years suck? is it a karma thing where you first have is hell on earth and the 2nd half is heaven? why did It start when it did? why did it impart knowledge of a religion I never studied why was I given a business of all things when in life I tend to like to follow rather than lead. why this field? I didn't grow up wanting to deal trucks or be in refrigeration?? Just an idiot suvaunt at the right place at the right time i guess huh?  Again sport my life is my needs filled to where i live the proof of God everyday, again maybe your version has you wake up in a vacuum surrounded by Gold.

Since it seems you missed my point, I'll put in bold the keyword

Also in life, if you want something badly, you'll do everything to get that something and eventually you get it. That's how you get stuff done in real life. If I want to go somewhere, I'll stress my boss until she's convinced to send me there. If I want to publish a paper in a renown journal, I'll accept all the crap suggestions the editor requires of me until I publish it. If you want to get a job so bad, you'll find it. I obtained pretty much everything I reasonably wanted in life, and it wasn't because of miracles or because some entity helped me. I insisted and insisted and the circumstances were favourable enough until it statistically became a thing. With each attempt I just pushed the odds. That's called determination, perseverance and well, "luck". In all of this I never asked god anything. I did it on my own and I was lucky enough.

again  got your point first time.. my point is that for most want and what life shite's on you are two completely different things.

Guess life is just that much better with a well earned degree. but again what if a billionare's lifestyle was just dropped in your lap? Again what I am describing to you is simply your level in life. I did not come from here no did I earn it, it was given to me like if someone leveled you up to billionare without deserving or earning it. could you imagine how happy and greatful for being leveled up to billionare status? Same thing here with me I just got to see how and why everything worked the way it did. I got to see God put things together for me He called them out and it happened before me. again what I needed to see for my belief.

"Go somewhere" meant as "pay me the travel expenses to go in this place for this conference or for this collaboration", not to change my workplace lol. My job can involve a lot of travelling and I like travelling, so I often take the chance to.

Even for me durning this whole selling the patent thing I was told to go to nyc for three days long weekend. they put us in a hotel in new jersey and drove into the Bronx every morning then worked to midnight lot of times no lunch dinner was the "continental breakfast items I took and wrapped up. or if we got done before subway closed we'd go there. I think I wound up staying over a week out fitting the first 4 test trucks (was only to be one then the installing dealer was supposed to do the rest.) I was the star of this multi million dollar deal, literal without me this would not have worked period. if these 4 worked as advertised 25 more where to be sold.. and despite the crazy money being thrown about.. I could not demand anything. I think I even had to pay the last few days and my ticket home. Again here is another example in my life where circumstance dictated action despite my personal wants or desire. so 3 turned into 7+ that I had to pay for. oh and not get paid for the time or expenses..

Lol, from your reply I understand you don't know how it works. When you submit your paper to a journal, it goes under peer review and even after it has passed the review, the editor will still make comments, mostly about the "appearance" of your work. Some editors are particularly annoying and nagging and make pointless or time wasting remarks such as "scale down this picture" or "put grids everywhere even if messy" or "cite recent works of my journal too". Not any of these comments magically turn into "let me rewrite your paper". You seem to have a really warped view of the scientific community.

Actually writing a patent is close. it seems to me you are standing up for the wrong things. your intellectual property you let people molest and corn hole, while you demand to stay here  or go there in a given project. that is what you stand up for that is what you will not compromise. Do you know what I was told my first application? (after the 'peer review of 25 closly related inventions?) they said my drawings where too crude. I needed them done via cad. I looked up the rules and it was not stated as such. in fact there are people you can hire to hand draw everything out. I got an art student to redraw and clean up my drawings for 100 bucks, told the guy to pound sand enclosed a print out from the rules in how things can be depicted.. I say that to say going into the review process I was not indoubt of anything I had working models and plenty of time to review my competitors/closely related inventions. They too recommend changes as they understand how things work, but I came in and refuted any changes needed to be made explain how the other guys work/failed and explain what mine did differently... 25 different times in 25 different ways.

I guess it's something you can't understand until you "feel" it, I suppose, as from your description I can't really grasp what it'd mean. I've gone as far as depriving and desensetizing myself from emotions and feelings, down the road of apathy and anhedonia and all in all, it wasn't too bad.

this dream was a pivitol moment in my life as it was about the 1/2 way point life before was one way life after changed. life before was very hard and cruel which lead me to hate God. from that time there was a lot of emotional repression as well wanted to be a spock or data. logic and reason only. Hell fire reminded me I am emotional being. I still see things very clock work ish but still retail emotion.

You reminded me of how I used to see teachers. When I was a kid I asked them questions and they would always provide me with answers. I created this warped idea that teachers and professors knew everything of their subjects and were like grandmasters. As I grew and started learning the same things as them and even surpassing them to the point the student/teacher position had reversed, I realized just how everyone knows so little. You could say I saw teachers as gods, but my idea was warped. They didn't know anything, I just knew too little.

My point being I know little to nothing less God shares it with me. If I am providing you with information you did not know then know it is not me personally sourced it. I simply know how to retrieve information. An old master mechanic once asked me do you know the difference between a master like me and you? I said sure, you know alot more about cars and trucks.. he said no.. I simply know where to go to look things up and can do so alot faster than you can. The same i true here with me. I can access God, I can't pretend I can always get an answer to every question, but I have yet to receive an answer that I have asked. meaning if I understod the question I got an answer. The whole creation evolution thing happened this way.

This was discussed in another thread  (Yes, I lurk the forums a lot even though I'm mainly posting in here) and I want to clarify a thing: are the holy spirit, God and Christ 3 separate, distinct entities? As in, there is nothing actually uniting them?
[quote]
When on earth Jesus was shown to be separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit.. In that Jesus Prayed to the father several times asking for different things, and the Holy Spirit was described descending on Christ after he was baptized. Now in heaven they are united as they are God. as they are the single power or theocracy or government that created creation and is in charge of creation.

[quote]
thess 5:21 tells us to question everything and to hold on to what is good. this does not mean question only the questionable but to also question the foundational.

What do you mean to "hold on what is good"? What is good? And questioning the foundational, does it mean to question the very existence, that is this perceived physical reality (eg, maybe we are brains in a bathtub kind of thing a la matrix?)

Foundational means foundational beliefs you take for granet. Things you don't normally question. For example for you the question should be ask: is science the best form of compiling evidence and data to truly determine whether or not there is a God? Why do I insist when other avenues have yielded positive results.

su·pe·ri·or
/səˈpirēər/Submit
adjective
1.
higher in rank, status, or quality.
"a superior officer"
synonyms: higher-ranking, higher-level, senior, higher, higher-up, upper-level, upper, loftier

God created man, the creator is superior to the creation.

God is infinite in power and knowledge we are very finite.

God has the authority/power over life and death, man does not.

God offers man eternal life and love through forgiveness of sin. some men can even be bother to accept this atonement.

In this world in this realm might makes right. (like it or not) there is no a single consolidation of might and power than the alpha and omega.

No evidence for creation.

creation is evidence for creation.

No evidence for his power or knowledge.

Both his power and knowledge can be found in the same place. you do not have the keys or the sole use of the word evidence. as I have been mopping the floor with you, you ought to know by now your appeal to probablity in scientific 'proof' simply allows you to dress the straw man to look as weak an feeble as you like. In truth evidence abounds through this religion. you simply want to ignore via a technicality.

No evidence about his authority about anything.

this is a stupid closed minded pov. Just in the church there is power to change global law and policy.
Hell the church ruled the planet for almost 1000 years, then on his authority splintered this power so man could not corrupt it again.

No evidence about eternal life either.

Again evidence abounds if one's mind was no so closed.