How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

I'll post the complete answers after, but this post alone deserves its standalone response.

@Drich

  no.. sorry sport.. here we 'proof our work by providing references and support material we don't pretend to just know otherwise you can be made the fool when someone asks for supporting material or simply provides the material they have that blows you out of the water.

Yes a mol of air is  28.9647 g/mol. 

but let say the atomic weight for a single molecule of air is 30.0000u for simple math sake

as the atomic weight of oxy is 15.9999u

https://www.google.com/search?q=mol+mass...e&ie=UTF-8

atomic weight of an atom of nitrogen is: 14.0067 u

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AJZ...UZ4towQyRg

( which also leaves room for argon and the other stuff)

but the atomic weight of gold is a little bit heavier.. little bit because we are dealing with atomic weight, but apples to apples it is a hellva lot heavier.

Au=196.9665690 u
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molec...d_679.html

can you see that three atoms that roughly make up air (remember we cheated and rounded up to 30) is far lighter than just one ATOM of gold. if fact 30 air molecules of air a needed or 90 atoms of the three primary air components are needed to equate the density of just 1 gold atom. That means in mass there is a 90:1 ratio needed of air to just one unit of gold..

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon.. 

1) You ask for references for something that is basic chemistry. You don't know anything about it? Cool, you can look up any periodic table for this kind of information, just realize that copy-pasting 6 figures atomic weights from wikipedia in here only makes you appear silly. No one uses 6 figures in normal calculations, especially when the number is 15.999996 (which anyone will rationally round up to 16). Look up what precision and accuracy are.

2) You clearly don't know what "mol", "atomic weight" and "molecules" even mean, and this is very evident to me. 90 tons of air are needed to create 1 ton of gold? Congratulations sir, you just destroyed the first fundamental law of chemistry, the principle of mass conservation:

The law of conservation of mass or principle of mass conservation states that for any system closed to all transfers of matter and energy, the mass of the system must remain constant over time, as system's mass cannot change, so quantity cannot be added nor removed. Hence the quantity of mass is conserved over time.

Just in case it didn’t reach you, 1 ton of gold is equal to 1 ton of air. (Ever heard of the joke “what weighs more, 1 pound of lead or 1 pound of feathers?”).

Also, bad math. Air is roughly made of 20% Oxygen and 80% Nitrogen, but oxygen and nitrogen are present in nature in the form of molecules not atoms, more specifically as O2 and N2. Your savage addition of the atomic weights, 16 + 14, to get 30 uma is downright wrong. Mind me, the number itself is close to the final number, but how you got it is downright wrong (and I tutored enough students to know that you did just that). This is how you calculate it:
Legend:
W = atomic/molecular weight (g/mol)
m = mass (g)
d = density (g/cm3)
T = temperature (°C or K)
P = pressure (atm)
V = volume (L)
n = number of moles (mol)
R = gas constant (atm*L/Kmol)

W(O2) = 32 g/mol
W(N2) = 28 g/mol
Air composition = 20% O2 + 80% N2
W(air) = 0.2*32 + 0.8*28 = 28.8 g/mol
In this example let's consider 1 mole of air for ease. By definition, a mole is

n = m/W

if we want to find out how many grams 1 mole of air is, then 

n = m/W  -->  m = n*W = (1 mol)*(28.8 g/mol) = 28.8 g

So 1 mole of air is 28.8 g. But air is gaseous in standard conditions (T = 25°C = 298 K, P = 1 atm), so we want to express it in terms of volume. From the gas law we'll get the volume:

PV = nRT --> V = nRT/P = (1 mol)*(0.082 atm*L/Kmol)*(298 K)/(1 atm) = 24.4 L

So 1 mole of air is equal to 28.8 g which is equal to 24.4 L.

According to the principle of mass conservation, the mass in a closed system is constant. This means that if our system comprises only 1 mol of air (28.8 g), and our godlike alchemist converted this mass in gold, then the final mass of gold will be the exact same, that is 28.8 g. So now we want to find out what we would get by converting 28.8 g (or 24.4L) of air into gold, either in terms of mass or volume:

W(Au) = 197 g/mol
d(Au) = 19.32 g/cm3

So our equivalence will be

m(air) = m(Au)

28.8 g(air) = 28.8 g(Au)

But 28.8 g of air was also equal to 1 mol air and 24.4L air, so

1 mol(air) = 24.4 L(air) = 28.8 g(air) = 28.8 g(Au)

So now, what is the volume of 28.8 g of gold? And what are the moles of gold?
d = m/V  -->  V = m/d
V(Au) = 28.8 g/19.32 g/cm3 = 1.49 cm3

n = m/W
n(Au) = 28.8 g/197 g/mol = 0.146 mol

So 1 mol of air, which is 24.4L or 28.8 g, would be converted to 28.8 g of gold which corresponds to 0.146 mol or 1.49 cm3 of gold (a small gold nugget).

As you can see, calculating the moles of gold isn’t even necessary for our example. Why did I bother to do it anyways? I did it to show you that what you were talking about was the molar ratio of air:gold, not the mass ratio. 
The air:gold molar ratio is the ratio between the moles of air and the moles of gold:

R = 1 mol(air)/0.146 mol(Au) = 6.84 (even in this case your math was off. 90:1? wtf?)

Which is the number that polymath found. However, he too was incorrect, as what you both were comparing here are the moles, not the masses. What you have to understand is that a mole is just a way to number things: 14 balls of 1 gram are equal to 1 ball of 14 g. A mole represents that "14". This is the example I typically give to my students, which usually is effective:


Just in case it wasn't clear, a.u. stands for arbitrary unit and here it is an analogy to uma. A weighs 14 uma and B weighs 2 uma. The numbers preceding A and B are an analogy to the number of moles: in this case 1 "mole" of A is equal to 7 "moles" of B in terms of "mass" (14 uma both). My usage of 7 wasn't casual either, because 7 is roughly the molar ratio of air:gold. So in your mind visualize A = gold and B = air. Do you get the picture now?

But let's make another example. Let's pretend we want to produce 1 Kg of gold, how much air is needed?

m(Au) = m(air)
1000 g(Au) = 1000 g(air)
We want to find out the volume of air, but to do so we have to pass through the moles. Remembering that W(air) = 28.8 g/mol and that n = m/W

n(air) = 1000 g/28.8 g/mol = 34.72 mols

From the gas law we have
PV = nRT  --> V(air) = nRT/P = (34.72 mol)*(0.082 atm*L/Kmol)*(298 K)/(1 atm) = 848.42 L

Just out of curiosity, let's calculate what were the initial moles of gold:

n(Au) = 1000 g/197 g/mol = 5.076 mol

Let's recalculate the ratio of air:gold

R = 34.72/5.076 = 6.84

Oh what a surprise, the same number we found before. As you can see, the molar ratio is the same and the mass is constant.

What you and polymath were talking about was the molar ratio, not the mass ratio. These mistakes are typical of fresh 1st year students who haven’t hit the books, which is okay if you aren’t a chemist and aren’t interested in the subject. It is completely fine for you to not know the definition of mols just as it is fine for me to not know how an integrated circuit works. However, going around and acting as if you know what you are talking about when you are completely oblivious about the subject is just downright arrogant and stupid.

Now let put your small box mind that could not understand this simple equation but call me stupid inside your house or building at work when you challenge God to do this. and he says sure let us show this monkey man who and what God is despite what others may have to go through.. and turn air into a ton of gold..

Now..
Riddle me this, does the whole of your house contain enough volume of aire to satifify the 90 to 1 ratio of air needed? Meaning if I pull a hard vacuum on your house (30hg)could i displace 90 tons of the atoms needed for your request??? 

What if God kept your house sealed and from implosion. because truly as you missed my point before You have no way of making sure air was being converted into gold otherwise.. I in slight of hand could turn air into gold. The only way you could see or know a atomic change was happening is if you were caught up in said vacuum.. Which would ironically (as your last breath was being pulled from your lungs) be the proof you needed lest the whole 'test' be for nothing.

So quick to flash your flare you missed the whole point completely.

Did you really think that your god’s homeschooling would have magically helped you lecturing me on this? Sir, what you are doing here is gambling and it looks like this time you didn't roll a six, did you? If this is the result of your god's teachings, then you both should go hit the books again. These are the only things that will actually help you:
https://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Chemica...0840048289

Get real.

here's the thing sport...

If all of what you posted is correct... where the F is your gold? I'm breathing plenty of air... so by your standard you should still be able to produce a city of Gold.

Have you considered the reason you can not turn air into gold is because you assume the above is correct and it hinders the process rather than helps?
I know this is what you believe, which gives you the arrogance of a King with out gold. But Again if all you say is correct and everything you assume about alchemy is correct then why not put up and shut me up show me the gold!

Ah, that's right you can't..

This is like you an earth is flat-er shaming me a (If the earth is flat why not this-er) for not giving enough 'shites' about something as trivial as turning air into gold!

My point wasn't I know more about your idea of how this works my point was if you knew how this all worked you would have it done it, because you don't know there are indeed variables you are not smart enough to account for air air to mass conversion. I deal in chemistry so far as my need in the refrigeration systems call for. What I was trying to demonstrate is that a pound of refrigerant in a gaseous state by volume is about 35% of a pound of the same refrigerant in a liquid state, there is always an unknown variable here as pressure and temperature dictates the point of condensation. either way the conversion of a gas to a heavier state requires more volume of gas.

Me telling you there is not a 1:1 ration of air to gas was at the core of my warning. As people often foolishly think we have unlimited resources when it comes to air and water as we all have no way to truly understand it's finite nature. 

My argument or my warning to you was look for the hidden cost if you extrapolate 1 ton of gold that weights 196u per atom and you have a collective of 45 u atomic weight of a molecule of air you are using 4 times more air to generate the same mass, density, weight in gold

Now...
Can you now see where my limitations are..

Yet my title, my position in life does not =/= my education. tell me some more about how smart I am. how I have this hidden latent non liner thinking ability. Again I have been placed and given all that I have and not earned it like someone like you has!