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In support of the rage of man
#5
RE: In support of the rage of man
(March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: I'm going to be coming with a couple unpopular lines here:

1) rage is natural, and is not dysfunctional

That's a gross oversimplification. Something can be "natural" and dysfunctional at the same time. It can be a matter of intensity, or the effects on a person's environment, health and social life. If you're enraged on very rare occasions, under reasonable circumstances - that's understandable. If you blow a fuse every time anything doesn't go your way - you have a problem. Aggression doesn't have to be a symptom of an underlying dysfunction, but it often is.  It's similar to - say - depression. Everyone gets sad once in a while, when something bad happens, but if you live in that state for a long time, regardless of circumstances - that's not "natural".

(March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: 2) the social norms which are anti-rage are unfair

Social norms - unfair? Say it isn't so... Tongue

Do you think society is "fair" to anybody? People who don't fit in, or can't keep up, get stigmatized, punished, or - at best - left to their own devices. And personally - as someone who does have some largely untreated anger issues (among others), severely affecting my life - I don't feel too bad for aggressive and violent people, because most of the ones I come across can't accept that they have a problem and need help. And rage feels really good, especially if one's addicted to it. And if I'm being punched in the face - or even just verbally abused, or threatened - by someone, I don't really give a flying f*ck about the c*nt's troubled childhood, or hormonal imbalance. It's one thing to be ill, another to be a danger to other people.  


(March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: All expressions of emotion are instinctive, and most of them are not really within conscious control.  When a child cries, the child doesn't really want to cry-- it just cries.  We understand this, and while it's annoying, we recognize that we have to put up with it.  When a fat person compulsively eats, he doesn't really want to get fat-- but the fat person is sometimes unable to subject his instinctive drive to rational truth.  When a woman is needlessly unpleasant due to PMS, we don't like it, and we might even complain about it-- but it's accepted that this is just part of the way some people are.

LOL... If by that you mean, that whenever a woman behaves in a way we don't find pleasing, or proper, we assume she's about to be bleeding from her tw*t, then sure - it's "accepted"...

That's off-topic, but I recommend researching how PMS symptoms differ drastically in in other cultures - if they exist at all.
Is PMS Real? Or is it just a figment of our menstruation-fearing culture?


(March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: Men who get angry get none of this consideration.  We have a million years of ruthless savagery ingrained in us.  Most men who anger easily don't like that fact.  They fight against it, are ashamed by it, and when their instincts subject their rational minds in a moment of loss of control, they have about as much control over it as they would an epileptic seizure.

And yet a lot of them don't seek help. Instead, it's common to romanticize and/or rationalize one's outbursts. And - again - I speak from personal experience.

(March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: In general, while an aggressive man is clearly a menace, and the behavior is not to be encouraged, I'd also say that demonizing people who have a problem controlling ANY instinct is unfair, and unlikely to produce good results.  Quite the contrary-- using humiliation to moderate a man's behavior is likely to make him feel deeply troubled and insecure, and increase the behavior overall.


I'm not sure what can be done about it.

Therapy and medication.

/thread Tongue
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
Reply



Messages In This Thread
In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 5:15 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - March 31, 2019 at 5:21 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by vulcanlogician - April 2, 2019 at 5:57 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 2, 2019 at 6:09 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by vulcanlogician - April 3, 2019 at 11:38 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 4, 2019 at 1:37 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - March 31, 2019 at 6:02 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - March 31, 2019 at 6:25 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 7:03 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - March 31, 2019 at 7:24 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 7:26 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - March 31, 2019 at 7:33 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 8:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - March 31, 2019 at 9:01 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 4:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - March 31, 2019 at 5:35 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - April 1, 2019 at 4:02 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 1, 2019 at 6:45 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - April 1, 2019 at 3:40 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 6:17 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 6:46 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 1, 2019 at 7:02 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 3:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - March 31, 2019 at 6:29 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by chimp3 - March 31, 2019 at 6:55 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 31, 2019 at 7:17 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - March 31, 2019 at 7:21 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by brewer - March 31, 2019 at 8:02 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - March 31, 2019 at 8:09 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by brewer - March 31, 2019 at 8:24 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 31, 2019 at 7:29 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - March 31, 2019 at 7:49 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - March 31, 2019 at 5:50 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by onlinebiker - March 31, 2019 at 8:52 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - March 31, 2019 at 9:32 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - March 31, 2019 at 12:28 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - March 31, 2019 at 5:55 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - March 31, 2019 at 6:21 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 11:18 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 11:40 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 12:13 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 1:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 1:24 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - April 1, 2019 at 2:29 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 2:47 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Alan V - March 31, 2019 at 6:59 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 2:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:27 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 8:34 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:48 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 9:14 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Mermaid - April 1, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LastPoet - April 1, 2019 at 1:49 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2019 at 1:07 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - March 31, 2019 at 1:29 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Alan V - March 31, 2019 at 1:27 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2019 at 1:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - March 31, 2019 at 1:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2019 at 1:41 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - March 31, 2019 at 3:06 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Cod - March 31, 2019 at 4:28 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2019 at 5:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - March 31, 2019 at 5:42 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - March 31, 2019 at 6:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - March 31, 2019 at 7:53 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - March 31, 2019 at 9:24 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by fredd bear - March 31, 2019 at 11:33 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by fredd bear - April 1, 2019 at 3:54 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 8:55 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 9:17 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 9:26 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 9:40 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Silver - April 1, 2019 at 10:17 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 3:08 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 3:42 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Silver - April 1, 2019 at 12:05 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 1:37 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 4:10 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Sal - April 1, 2019 at 3:46 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Sal - April 1, 2019 at 4:26 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - April 1, 2019 at 4:34 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 5:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 5:15 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 5:40 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 6:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 2, 2019 at 2:13 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 2:32 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - April 1, 2019 at 5:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 1, 2019 at 5:32 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 1, 2019 at 5:36 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 5:46 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 6:08 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 1, 2019 at 10:57 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 11:19 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 1, 2019 at 11:42 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 1, 2019 at 11:45 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 6:26 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 1, 2019 at 6:33 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 6:44 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 1, 2019 at 6:45 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 6:44 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 6:36 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 6:50 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 7:16 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 6:51 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 7:24 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 1, 2019 at 7:46 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:07 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 7:48 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 1, 2019 at 7:10 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 7:15 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 7:18 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 8:16 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:28 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 10:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 10:18 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 10:45 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 7:15 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by fredd bear - April 1, 2019 at 7:21 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by fredd bear - April 1, 2019 at 7:49 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:06 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 9:07 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 9:14 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 1, 2019 at 9:59 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 10:03 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by fredd bear - April 1, 2019 at 10:22 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 1, 2019 at 10:38 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 11:00 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 7:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 8:31 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:41 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 8:40 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:44 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 8:42 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 8:44 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 8:50 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2019 at 8:53 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 8:54 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 8:59 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 9:05 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 9:08 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 9:13 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 9:36 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 8:59 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 9:02 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 9:06 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 9:08 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 9:04 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2019 at 9:20 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 10:19 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 1, 2019 at 10:45 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 10:27 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - April 1, 2019 at 10:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 10:51 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 1, 2019 at 11:40 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 11:47 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 2, 2019 at 12:03 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 12:11 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 2, 2019 at 12:47 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 12:52 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 2, 2019 at 6:26 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 7:14 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 2, 2019 at 3:41 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 1, 2019 at 11:00 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 1, 2019 at 11:45 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 2, 2019 at 2:50 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Little lunch - April 2, 2019 at 7:05 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Acrobat - April 2, 2019 at 7:41 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 10:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 10:18 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Acrobat - April 2, 2019 at 11:50 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 12:24 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Acrobat - April 2, 2019 at 1:25 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 2:53 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Athene - April 2, 2019 at 4:37 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 4:46 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Mermaid - April 2, 2019 at 8:27 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - April 2, 2019 at 8:57 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 9:15 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by tackattack - April 2, 2019 at 9:20 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 10:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 10:23 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 11:03 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2019 at 1:03 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 2, 2019 at 4:21 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Amarok - April 2, 2019 at 4:25 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 2, 2019 at 4:35 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 5:26 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 2, 2019 at 5:41 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Alan V - April 2, 2019 at 5:46 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 2, 2019 at 4:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 2, 2019 at 6:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 2, 2019 at 6:50 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 2, 2019 at 8:23 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 8:50 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 3, 2019 at 1:37 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 2:27 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 3, 2019 at 2:35 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - April 3, 2019 at 5:18 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 3, 2019 at 5:55 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 3, 2019 at 6:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 6:10 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Homeless Nutter - April 3, 2019 at 6:13 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 6:08 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 3, 2019 at 1:52 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 5:28 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Shell B - April 2, 2019 at 7:14 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 2, 2019 at 7:22 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 7:43 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Yonadav - April 2, 2019 at 7:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 2, 2019 at 8:06 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 2:47 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 3, 2019 at 2:54 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Little lunch - April 3, 2019 at 7:05 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by I_am_not_mafia - April 3, 2019 at 7:14 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 3, 2019 at 7:27 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 7:46 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Little lunch - April 3, 2019 at 7:38 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 1:55 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 5:39 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 6:02 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 6:09 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 6:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 3, 2019 at 7:05 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 3, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 9:35 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by arewethereyet - April 3, 2019 at 9:58 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 3, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 9:56 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by LadyForCamus - April 3, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2019 at 10:19 pm
RE: In support of the rage of man - by bennyboy - April 4, 2019 at 6:43 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 4, 2019 at 3:53 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Little lunch - April 4, 2019 at 5:11 am
RE: In support of the rage of man - by Belacqua - April 4, 2019 at 5:37 am

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