RE: The Best Logique Evidence of God Existence
July 15, 2019 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 15, 2019 at 5:33 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(July 15, 2019 at 2:36 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:(July 14, 2019 at 7:54 pm)sdelsolray Wrote: It does not say that at all.
Study hard.
Quote:Second law of thermodynamics says that the energy is decreasing over time
and some day will be consumed.
Actually it says PRECISELY the opposite.
He is wrong about that, and has been thoroughly schooled on his errors on another forum. Not only is he wrong, he appears to be incapable of learning.
He even posted a video on the subject which DOES NOT say what he claims it says. He has a severe problem.
entropy
noun
en·tro·py| \ ˈen-trə-pē \
plural entropies
Definition of entropy
1 thermodynamics : a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system's disorder, that is a property of the system's state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system broadly : the degree of disorder or uncertainty in a system
2a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity Entropy is the general trend of the universe toward death and disorder.— James R. Newman
b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder The deterioration of copy editing and proof-reading, incidentally, is a token of the cultural entropy that has overtaken us in the postwar years.— John Simon
3 : chaos, disorganization, randomness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law...modynamics
"The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time."
(July 15, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Belaqua Wrote:(July 15, 2019 at 12:44 pm)Grandizer Wrote: If God just IS existence, then that's not anywhere close to the God that most Christians believe in. I don't even think Aquinas saw God that way either.
Christians believe in God as First Cause. As has been pointed out, showing that the First Cause is also good, conscious, etc., is not part of the First Cause argument. You need additional arguments for that.
(July 15, 2019 at 3:31 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: But, if things exist necessarily; if existence is not contingent on any other pre-condition; if stuff exists simply because there is no alternative, why call it a “cause” at all? My understanding of the way most theists utilize this argument is to say that there has to be some uncaused thing that caused stuff to exist, and that thing is god. God, in this commonly presented version of the argument, is entirely separate and categorically different from the reality it caused to exist.
I despair of ever getting people to see what Aristotle used the word "cause" for. The word has a very specific meaning in modern English, and it seems hard to get past that.
In the First Cause argument, it just means "something you have to have for something else to exist."
So for example, if you have a bronze statue, the bronze is called the "material cause." Not because the bronze took some action to make the statue, but because a statue has to be made of something, and in this case it's bronze.
(It's not so unusual for philosophical language to have a special sense. If you talk about Plato's Eros, or Kant's Intuition, those words don't mean the same thing as in common English conversation. To talk about those philosophers, we have to learn the vocabulary. Also Gothic art has nothing to do with the Goths, and the World Series excludes most of the world.)
The First Cause is separate and different because it doesn't depend on anything else for its existence. Everything else relies on the First Cause (and a chain of other stuff) to exist.
Quote:So, if this is the correct philosophical interpretation of first cause arguments, then I can’t see why theists think it’s an argument for god.
It's part of an argument. To show that the First Cause is also good, conscious, etc. needs more argument.
But it's a trick. It's not an argument for "first" anything. It's an argument for a cause, not "first" cause.
Proximate cause .... ie "nearest cause", not first cause.
An omnipotent deity (in their world) could create any number of levels of universe makers, and one of them could be (in their logic) the cause of the universe.
In fact, this same deity could have created robotic universe creators who are sitting somewhere playing "evil universe" .... how many children can we give cancer to, today ?
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell ![Popcorn Popcorn](https://atheistforums.org/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)
Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist
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Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist