Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position

[The Grand Nudger]

"Joining the club" and believing in God are really two separate endeavours. If you're not going to join any club, you still need to give good objections to what people present as reasons to believe, and so far I don't think you gave any.
And don't worry, I don't have some delusion of being able to convert crowds of people, or even one person, overnight. I just want to present my case genuinely, and hear genuine, thoughtful objections, not just biased repugnance.

Why would I need objections?  I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you that your silly god isn't real.  You "presented your case" by making some garbage op about how agnosticism was the most dishonest position..and have since shown anyone reading that you don't know jack shit about anything that you're bickering over.

First of all, what you call relativist excuses, are not excuses, nor relativist. No religious person is a relativist, we ascribe to a fixed, unchanging set of commands in scripture. It's your turn to close your eyes and think of other parts in this world when people do things you might hate with every ounce of your soul, but should still hear their reasoning. A vegan shouldn't find meat eaters too repugnant, right?

Back to the thomas jefferson example, let's say you really hate the guy for owning slaves. Does that make his advocacy for democracy, tolerance and individual rights less acceptable? Am I going to count "you out" with regards to his social views ?
And why would you expect a prophet from god to ascribe to your exact personal moral views?

You referred to

1. that only people of his time could judge him 
and
2.  That maybe the little girl liked it.

These are two explicitly relativist and subjectivist excuses.  Fixing your moral system to a magic book does not make you something other than a relativist - it's the actual definition of moral relativism.  

You can count me out with regards to a great many of jefferson's social views.  He was very much a man of his own time.  Incidentally, I do not worship jefferson, any book jefferson wrote, or any god that jefferson may have believed justified his particular ethical points of view. I could save you the time with this fishing expedition into americana. It's an argument from hypocrisy. "Your founding fathers did bad shit too" only works when you acknowledge that your cult founder did bad shit.

I don't expect a prophet from a god to share my moral views.  I don't expect any prophets from god whatsoever, lol.  

What kind of pathetic non-answer is that? You either are completely with me on this point, or you're not. Saying "I accept that you believe this" is dodgy really.

You say mo took a child bride.  Clearly, my objection being to child brides, there's no misapprehension here.

Okay, to sum it all up:

existence of god/gods ...  irrelevant

Correct.  Plenty of things exist.  I don't worship the vast majority of those things, and their moral status isn't addressed by their existence.

Whether Muhammad was moral/righteous as a prophet ... irrelevant

Obviously relevant.  Magic book says he was a warlord who took a child bride.  You concur.  

Our ovewhelming inkling/tendency to believe ... irrelevant

I'm not feeling overwhelmed.  : shrugs :

This is an argument from popularity in and of itself.

Something can't come from nothing .... irrelevant

Correct.  Regardless of whether or not something can come from nothing - I;m a person of strong moral character and conscience.  The problem with your silly religion isn't whether or not you can accept your own beliefs when the apologetic urge bites.  

So .. tell me please, what is relevant?

It's clear that you're dismissing good reasons for belief for the sole reason that you're somewhat familiar with them, and certainly not because you have some good rebuttal. You're not impressed by what the other camp has to offer and that's understandable. Now the key thing is to learn to be impressed and think of these issues in a fresh way, and that's not something I, or anyone, can make you do.
Also, seeing both the issues of the existence of gods AND the morality of the prophets as irrelevant is really closing any possible discussion.

Back to the sense of wonder, yeah, it's a common human perception, I know, and that's why it matters. Common human perceptions are much more compelling, engaging and vivacious than any amount of logical proofs, and you know it, so much that you can feel it.

I have, multiple times.  I am a moral realist.  Your religion is evil.  Your cult founder was a pedophile with a sword.  Magic books position on morally relevant issues is a raging garbage fire.

These may not be problems for you, but they are problems for me. As I keep telling you, assume that your god is real - all of your work is still ahead of you.

As far as common human perceptions..it's a common human perception to see faces on the moon, a related phenomena to god beliefs. You can see how this is just as irrelevant as anything that preceded it, since the problem with your religion, to me anyway..isn't whether or not your god exists. It's all you want to bicker about - but it doesn't matter, and you've given no indication that you're up to the task of proving any deities existence, anyway. I just thought you might be interested to know that this feeling you have, the sense of the numinous, isn't actually a batphone to god.

I don't actually expect you to agree with my moral assessment, and it's unimportant to me that you won't. It's not even all that important to hash out our differences. I'm trying to help you understand something that you've misjudged. We get people here all the time who imagine that the board is full of people who just haven't heard the right gods mouth piece say the right things. People who imagine that they could be that person. You are not that person, and that's not actually how any of this works. At some point, you'll have to make peace with living in a world full of people who do not reject your religion because they are confused about some particular item, but because they have been very well informed, by people like yourself and by your magic book - andon the basis of that accurate understanding, say no thx.

Think about why you aren't a christian or a hindu. It's obviously not on account of how you don't believe in gods. It's obviously not on account of how you don't find arguments for the existence of gods compelling.