RE: I have some questions for the posters here.
June 23, 2021 at 4:30 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2021 at 4:32 pm by Frank Apisa.)
(June 23, 2021 at 4:17 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:I am convinced that in discussions about REALITY...especially in discussions about whether gods exist or not)...the words "believe" and "belief" are used as a disguise for "guess." I understand why theist do it. It makes more sense for them to say, "I 'believe' there is a god" than to say, "I guess there is a god."Quote:The universe does not require a prime mover. I agree. But there might be one or more anyway...no matter that we agree it is not a requirement.
The universe has laws...and no gods are required. But there might be one or more anyway...no matter that we agree it is not a requirement.
The "god loves you" bullshit sickens me. But there might be a god anyway.
I also do not "believe" any gods exist...just as I do not "believe" there are no gods.
Here are two different ways of describing the difference between atheist and agnostic.
1) Agnostic/Gnostic refers to whether the existence of gods are personally known, or can in general be known. Theist/Atheist refers to belief/lack-of-belief in gods.
One is a question about knowledge, the other is belief. I am an agnostic atheist. I do not think that the question of gods/no-gods can be proven either way, but I don't believe in any of the them. As for unknown gods - Why would I believe in what I can't define or know?
Some are gnostic atheists, who believe that the existence of gods is both knowable (should they exist), and such beings have failed the tests for existence (based on the standard definitions of gods, and the evidence in our possession).
2) There is a sliding scale of belief (as per Dawkins) where at one end is a belief that God almost certainly exists, at the other is a belief that gods almost certainly do not exist, and somewhere in between describes most people. This does not distinguish between knowledge and belief, and I therefore find it less useful.
The single term "agnostic" for describing one's belief is not useful, IMO. If you are describing belief, are you really half-way in between believing and non-believing? If you are describing knowledge (that we can't know either way), then you are saying nothing about your belief. Does an agnostic pray to every deity, just in case? Of course not. Does an agnostic worry that they are going to hell? I hope not. Saying "I don't know" is really telling us nothing about how you interact in your life with the god concept.
Not sure why people who use atheist as a descriptor do it. Easy for them to say, "MY guess is there are no gods." No big deal.
In any case, I do not do guessing on the issue...so I do not do "believing."
If you insist, however, I am willing to make a guess. I promise I am doing this legit. I am going to toss Mr. Coin in a second. Heads, I will guess there is at least one god; Tails I will guess there are no gods. (My wife and I use Mr. Coin to settle difference in pool picks during the NFL season, so it gets lots of work.)
I flipped...TRULY...and it came up HEADS. I hereby guess there is at least one god.
Makes as much sense as what the theists and atheists do on the issue.
(June 23, 2021 at 4:30 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote:(June 23, 2021 at 4:17 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Here are two different ways of describing the difference between atheist and agnostic.I am convinced that in discussions about REALITY...especially in discussions about whether gods exist or not)...the words "believe" and "belief" are used as a disguise for "guess." I understand why theist do it. It makes more sense for them to say, "I 'believe' there is a god" than to say, "I guess there is a god."
1) Agnostic/Gnostic refers to whether the existence of gods are personally known, or can in general be known. Theist/Atheist refers to belief/lack-of-belief in gods.
One is a question about knowledge, the other is belief. I am an agnostic atheist. I do not think that the question of gods/no-gods can be proven either way, but I don't believe in any of the them. As for unknown gods - Why would I believe in what I can't define or know?
Some are gnostic atheists, who believe that the existence of gods is both knowable (should they exist), and such beings have failed the tests for existence (based on the standard definitions of gods, and the evidence in our possession).
2) There is a sliding scale of belief (as per Dawkins) where at one end is a belief that God almost certainly exists, at the other is a belief that gods almost certainly do not exist, and somewhere in between describes most people. This does not distinguish between knowledge and belief, and I therefore find it less useful.
The single term "agnostic" for describing one's belief is not useful, IMO. If you are describing belief, are you really half-way in between believing and non-believing? If you are describing knowledge (that we can't know either way), then you are saying nothing about your belief. Does an agnostic pray to every deity, just in case? Of course not. Does an agnostic worry that they are going to hell? I hope not. Saying "I don't know" is really telling us nothing about how you interact in your life with the god concept.
Not sure why people who use atheist as a descriptor do it. Easy for them to say, "MY guess is there are no gods." No big deal.
In any case, I do not do guessing on the issue...so I do not do "believing."
If you insist, however, I am willing to make a guess. I promise I am doing this legit. I am going to toss Mr. Coin in a second. Heads, I will guess there is at least one god; Tails I will guess there are no gods. (My wife and I use Mr. Coin to settle difference in pool picks during the NFL season, so it gets lots of work.)
I flipped...TRULY...and it came up HEADS. I hereby guess there is at least one god.
Makes as much sense as what the theists and atheists do on the issue.
