(December 1, 2021 at 9:14 am)Ten Wrote: I think I would still challenge the idea of worship or awe for anything that can be materially defined and physically interacted with. Like, even if you define your god as a realistic being, the "daddy" of creation, I'm still stuck on the theism bit. Why is he god? He can be explained. It's still absurd.
Or maybe I'm just not catching on to what you mean by the oxymoron of "thoughtful theists" and what you mean by grounded and realistic. Theism itself by the definition "belief in a god" is escaping the physical and definable reality. What is god? The more concrete it is, the less it is god.
I don't endorse worship of anyone or anything. At least "worship" in the crude sense as is endorsed by Baptists and Mormons. Awe on the other hand, I think is natural. I'm awed by nature. When I peak out my window to see a sow-covered tree, I am awed by its beauty. If theists believe some kind of cosmic intelligence to be behind it all, awe might be appropriate there too.
There are plenty of thoughtful theists around. Tolstoy is a great example. In his Confession he wrote:
Quote:A certain intelligent and honest man named S. once told mehttp://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgup...olstoy.pdf
the story of how he ceased to be a believer. At the age of twentysix, while'taking shelter for the night during a hunting trip, he
knelt to pray in the evening, as had been his custom since childhood. His older brother, who had accompanied him on the trip,
was lying down on some straw and watching him. When S. had
finished and was getting ready to lie down, his brother said to him,
"So you still do that." And they said nothing more to each other.
From that day S. gave up praying and going to church. And for
thirty years he has not prayed, he has not taken holy communion,
and he has not gone to church. Not because he shared his brother's
convictions and went along with them; nor was it because he had
decided on something or other in his own soul. It was simply-that
the remark his brother had made was like the nudge of a finger
against a wall that was about to fall over from its own weight. His
brother's remark showed him that the place where he thought
faith to be had long since been empty; subsequently the words he
spoke, the signs of the cross he made, and the bowing of his head
in prayer were in essence completely meaningless actions. Once
having admitted the meaninglessness of these gestures, he could
no longer continue them.
Tolstoy is a theist, but he's also profoundly thoughtful, as a reading of the above passage indicates. His journey to belief as described in the Confession begins with him dismissing the many absurdities (like the ones you mention in the OP). I think Tolstoy exemplifies a thoughtful theist. If you think "thoughtful theist" is an oxymoron, you should read his Confession. I found it to be an exhilarating work. Lots of insights in there, even for an atheist. If anything, reading the book dispels the notion that there's no such thing as a thoughtful theist.
