Proof and evidence will always equal Science

[Ferrocyanide]

The reason philosophers choose ordinary objects to talk about the issue is because it simplifies things. Philosophers posit that the chair is "made of simples"... some constituent parts: atoms... or quarks or whatever particle, quantum field, or what have you, that is most fundamental.

But "atom" is a conceived of object just like the chair. All you are doing by saying that "atoms are real" is shifting the metaphysical burden to a different ordinary object. "Are atoms real?" is just as a metaphysically salient question as "Are chairs real?"

I think I understand.
You want to define what “real” means.

Humans have decided that reality is objective. In other words, I can inspect that chair today, the next day. Another person can observe the same chair. We can write descriptions about it, we can photograph it. We can agree that we are seeing the same chair. In fact, all humans can observe the same chair.
So, humans collect evidence and the evidence collected by one person matches the evidence collected by others.

To all us humans, the chair is real.
It is possible that all this is a computer simulation and from the perspective of the guy sitting at the computer, we are just a simulation and not real.
It is also possible that we are in the Matrix (the movie known as Matrix).

There is no way for us to know whether we are a simulation or whether we are in the Matrix.
We also assume that the other humans are real and not imaginary or some kind of simulation.

What is not real?
An example: I think most of us (20 th, 21 th century people) don’t consider dreams to be real. We think of it as a movie generated by a part of our brain.
(Some people think that dreams have a significance. Some people think that they predict the future.)
Another example: someone hears some voices but the people around him do not. We conclude that the voices are generated by some part of the person’s brain and that he is malfunctioning.
I think modern psychology classifies such cases as mental illness.

So, certain things are not provable. We just assume that other humans are independent observers. We assume that the world around us is real and can exist without us existing.
There is a baseline.
For example, in physics, the question is “Is an object divisible? How many times can you divide it? How small is small?”
You can split a cake until you reach the smallest component, which was suppose to be the atom.
Then we found out that atoms are made of smaller components.
Via experimentation, they have never been able to split an electron. It is considered a particle that is fundamental. It is of the lepton family.
For protons and neutrons, these are divisible and they are made of gluons and certain quarks. It is believed that gluons and quarks are not divisible.

So, electrons, gluons, quarks would be the baseline.

Music is a physical phenomenon. A disturbance. A wave traveling through air molecules. Music is sound. Sound is a physical phenomenon.

Music can be recorded on a vinyl record. It can be present as an analog signal on a cassette’s tape, it could be in the form as digital information on a hard disk.
It is information and information can be copied from medium to medium. The medium is made of atoms. (Unless if you use light pulses to represent the information or an electrical signal or some other type of field).

We can destroy the tapes, the vinyl records, the hard drives. Where did the atoms go? They are still here. (Conservation of matter and energy rule from physics).
Where did the information go? It was destroyed/scrambled. (No conservation of information).

At one point in time, that music (information) did not exist. Someone brought it into existence in the form of ink on paper and later on as sound waves in air and then it goes onto the tape.
Somebody brought it into existence by arranging atoms in the proper order.

Gods are a different story. I'm highly suspicious of the category error claims being advanced by Bel and Neo.

I disagree with Belacqua.
I think the gods that various cultures have, were fabricated by their respective ancestors. I don’t think that they have observed their gods. So, it is no different than smurfs and the tooth fairy.
But I don’t have a time machine. I can’t go back to the past and find you the exact guys who invented the gods.

#2 There is this claim that god is not physical. I respond with:
Music, software, names, languages, numbers, colors, blueprints are not physical either. They don’t exist if there are no atoms to represent them.
Music cannot interact with our reality if it doesn’t exist.
It’s only when it exists in a physical form, such as a cassette, that it interacts with reality. Put the cassette in and press play. It’s just atoms interacting with atoms.


#3 So, if god is not physical, then what is god made of?
The theist claims that it is a spirit.
Refer back to the post that Ten made. He asks “Can you define what spirit means?”

I did want to step in and defend the assertion that metaphysical assumptions (such as "chairs exist", "chairs don't exist", "atoms exist", "atoms don't exist") don't depend on empirical findings to be proven true or false. I agree with them on that, but little else.

I am interested. My ears are open.

You should watch the vsauce video. One of the proposed solutions will appeal to you. I can almost guarantee.

I just watched it:
Do Chairs Exist?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXW-QjBsruE
By Vsauce
Length = 37:53

It looks like he talks about some of the things I talk about and pushes it further and knows the philosophical terms.
It reminded me of when we were 10 y old. I asked my friend, but how do you define stealing? If I go into a shop and touch an apple and a few molecules stick to my fingers, does that count as stealing?
What if I keep going into the shop and keep touching the apple, each time removing some molecules, at what point does it count as stealing?

Is design real? Is information real? (Again) are atoms real? All these are concepts. Just like chair. We're focusing on chairs because it's a simple thing.

According to me, design, information is not real. Atoms are real. You can use some ink and paper to draw your design and so, the design becomes real. That arrangement of atoms (ink + paper) represents your design.
Wink wink.