RE: Is there free will in heaven?
November 26, 2011 at 8:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 26, 2011 at 9:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
For fucks sake man...why are they "bad desires", you're arguing against a wall. How did these "bad desires" go away in the first place? If they were removed in some screen as you pass through the gates, yep, that's free will gone. If they simply vanish as a part of the dying process (that god set up, remember this, as the creator of all) then again, they were removed. If they were not, then you're going to find yourself in hell, what, five minutes after walking into heaven? What you've seen are people asking why their personalities would have to be altered to remain in heaven, not why they can't do bad things in heaven. Many of these posters reject the criteria that the faithful have set for good and evil. Why must the homosexual start liking women, or stop liking men. Why is that evil? If he must, how is it done? Sure, if you're already on the same page as god maybe you'll lose that last nagging thing that you couldn't deal with in life, maybe you always wanted to give up being a drunken wifebeater. But if you are someone like myself, who is condemned by the very act of being themselves without any justification beyond "godwillsit" then it is indeed going to take a forceful removal of my free will to allow me to remain in heaven. Or I'm just going to hell. Honestly I can't tell the difference between the two places anymore.
Assuming that "bad desires" will vanish (somehow) as a part of "personal growth" in "heaven" is garbage. You're just re-defining all of these things so that the argument can work. That means that it doesn't. How to best explain my frustration here? These things which you are referencing, are things that are directly tied to the material. We're not talking about the material though are we? Let's try to maintain that line, yes? I don't accept the "as above, so below" answer from a "christian viewpoint". That's sympathetic magic, not heaven, and not christianity. Even attempting to equivocate heaven (and what goes on there) as "personal growth" is playing fast and loose with the concept of heaven. Sounds more like self help aisle bullshit than than the revealed word. What you're doing here, essentially, is saying "I can imagine a heaven that does not contradict my definition of free will". Doesn't matter in the least. I don't think you've accurately represented either heaven, free will, or personal growth in this argument. But opinions are like assholes, so no worries there.
Also, there's still the nagging bit about me liking Lego sets (and teddy bears, toy tractors, cartoons, my mother, etc etc etc). Tell you what, since you don't like Lego sets anymore, utilize your free will and like them again, since it was in no way diminished, and free will apparently has something to do with whether or not one likes children's toys. -all credit goes to Cinjin.
Once the premise and assertions in the heaven argument have been fleshed out and are accetable, and once the premise and assertions in the free will argument are fleshed out and acceptable, then I'll have to deal with the argument on it's own terms, exactly as put. Until then, I get to question the whole bit don't I. So any argument about free will or heaven is going to find itself questioned from every angle, you don't get to dictate the terms of the engagement, and I wish you'd stop insinuating or suggesting that I should stop asking questions like "but does this exist, if it exists, is the picture we've been presented with accurate, why are the rules for this hypothetical place set up the way they are, how are dissenters handled, can you dissent?" etc, in addition to questioning whether or not the answer given actually explains anything about the subject in question or is just a platitude. Personal growth sounds fantastic, but the way you've decided to frame it makes the phrase pretty much meaningless (unless you actually meant to say conformity, rather than personal growth, or have used personal growth in place of conformity because it sounded softer) . All of these questions directly relate to whether or not there can be free will in heaven even if only in the hypothetical. The next time you say "That's not what we're talking about" I'm just going to assume you'd rather not answer because you don't have an answer, and I'll ask the same question again. I'm so fucking tired of hearing "that's not what we're talking about" with regards to christian apologetics.
Assuming that "bad desires" will vanish (somehow) as a part of "personal growth" in "heaven" is garbage. You're just re-defining all of these things so that the argument can work. That means that it doesn't. How to best explain my frustration here? These things which you are referencing, are things that are directly tied to the material. We're not talking about the material though are we? Let's try to maintain that line, yes? I don't accept the "as above, so below" answer from a "christian viewpoint". That's sympathetic magic, not heaven, and not christianity. Even attempting to equivocate heaven (and what goes on there) as "personal growth" is playing fast and loose with the concept of heaven. Sounds more like self help aisle bullshit than than the revealed word. What you're doing here, essentially, is saying "I can imagine a heaven that does not contradict my definition of free will". Doesn't matter in the least. I don't think you've accurately represented either heaven, free will, or personal growth in this argument. But opinions are like assholes, so no worries there.
Also, there's still the nagging bit about me liking Lego sets (and teddy bears, toy tractors, cartoons, my mother, etc etc etc). Tell you what, since you don't like Lego sets anymore, utilize your free will and like them again, since it was in no way diminished, and free will apparently has something to do with whether or not one likes children's toys. -all credit goes to Cinjin.
Once the premise and assertions in the heaven argument have been fleshed out and are accetable, and once the premise and assertions in the free will argument are fleshed out and acceptable, then I'll have to deal with the argument on it's own terms, exactly as put. Until then, I get to question the whole bit don't I. So any argument about free will or heaven is going to find itself questioned from every angle, you don't get to dictate the terms of the engagement, and I wish you'd stop insinuating or suggesting that I should stop asking questions like "but does this exist, if it exists, is the picture we've been presented with accurate, why are the rules for this hypothetical place set up the way they are, how are dissenters handled, can you dissent?" etc, in addition to questioning whether or not the answer given actually explains anything about the subject in question or is just a platitude. Personal growth sounds fantastic, but the way you've decided to frame it makes the phrase pretty much meaningless (unless you actually meant to say conformity, rather than personal growth, or have used personal growth in place of conformity because it sounded softer) . All of these questions directly relate to whether or not there can be free will in heaven even if only in the hypothetical. The next time you say "That's not what we're talking about" I'm just going to assume you'd rather not answer because you don't have an answer, and I'll ask the same question again. I'm so fucking tired of hearing "that's not what we're talking about" with regards to christian apologetics.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
