RE: Russia and Ukraine
October 10, 2022 at 4:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2022 at 4:29 pm by Belacqua.)
Leonardo,
Thank you very much for your courteous reply. I'm impressed that you could disagree so thoroughly and yet not resort to insults. It's a rare and much appreciated quality.
The mainstream media on both sides has created its own bizarre alternate reality. Those in their respective propaganda bubbles have extremely distorted views of reality. I don't know how true this is in your part of the world, but I know it's true in the US and other areas where the pro-US corporate media lie all the time.
So we have to be careful.
It's certainly true that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. And that the US is handing them weapons. I am skeptical that Putin got involved specifically to attack these Nazis. Rather, what the Ukrainians (including some Nazis) were doing to the Russian-speaking populations was an obvious casus belli.
I don't know what you mean about drug addicts. I have not seen this mentioned.
We just have to be very careful and evaluate each claim.
The US propaganda bubble has included lots of claims about Russia which have quietly been retracted later on. For example, that Hillary Clinton lost the election due to Russian interference. Or that Trump had such close ties with Russia that they could control him. These things were loudly reported for a while, and then retracted in much quieter voices.
Even some of the things that Trump said, as we were all laughing at him, turned out to be true. For example he made a speech saying that Germany was overly dependent on the Russian gas pipelines. When he said that all the German delegates laughed openly. But it turned out to be true, because now that the gas is unavailable, the Germans are complaining that the gas the US is selling them is wildly expensive. It really is going to harm German industry terribly. Recently Trump said that the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US, and that is also completely true. I don't know who tells Trump what to say, but sometimes they get it right.
I have no respect for the LePen family or Meloni. I do have respect for those few independent journalists who do not believe that Putin is 100 Hitler brains in a Godzilla body. He is doing exactly what it was predicted he would do, when the US took its provocative steps. His response has been far more limited than it could have been. These most recent attacks on Kiev, for example, are exactly the sort of thing that the US does on the first day when it attacks a nation.
So I acknowledge that both sides live in propaganda bubbles. The US-backed narrative is ridiculously simplified so as to make Putin and Russia into irrational madmen. And that is what gets repeated on this forum. People repeat the propaganda slogans to each other, and feel like as if they're in the right. And this leads them to cheer when people die.
If I make any specific claim which you feel is wrong, please address that. I'd be happy to see objective reporting from other sources, as the sources I see are also not perfect. It's an ongoing process of weighing and sifting.
Thank you again for responding with such kindness. It's a pleasure to talk with people who can do this in a grown-up way.
Thank you very much for your courteous reply. I'm impressed that you could disagree so thoroughly and yet not resort to insults. It's a rare and much appreciated quality.
Quote:What the mainstream media says is usually the same with the Russian propaganda in Moscow Journals and televisions.
Some of the things you just said are direct quotations from the alternate reality that the Russian propaganda is creating.
The mainstream media on both sides has created its own bizarre alternate reality. Those in their respective propaganda bubbles have extremely distorted views of reality. I don't know how true this is in your part of the world, but I know it's true in the US and other areas where the pro-US corporate media lie all the time.
So we have to be careful.
Quote: I said “alternate reality” because that’s exactly what it is. This is the propaganda machine that claims that the objective of Putin was to remove “Nazis” (Like in Wolwenstein 4D Nazis) and “drug addicts” (I still couldn’t figure out this one) from power in Ukraine.
It's certainly true that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. And that the US is handing them weapons. I am skeptical that Putin got involved specifically to attack these Nazis. Rather, what the Ukrainians (including some Nazis) were doing to the Russian-speaking populations was an obvious casus belli.
I don't know what you mean about drug addicts. I have not seen this mentioned.
Quote:How could you expect anyone to believe any of this? This is a QAnnon theory. This is the Election Campaign of Marine Lepen or the emigration policy of Georgia Meloni, this is Donald Trump’s speech to the far-right in Spain via skype or youtube.
I cannot even concentrate on such arguments. I cannot even read them. I’m sorry
We just have to be very careful and evaluate each claim.
The US propaganda bubble has included lots of claims about Russia which have quietly been retracted later on. For example, that Hillary Clinton lost the election due to Russian interference. Or that Trump had such close ties with Russia that they could control him. These things were loudly reported for a while, and then retracted in much quieter voices.
Even some of the things that Trump said, as we were all laughing at him, turned out to be true. For example he made a speech saying that Germany was overly dependent on the Russian gas pipelines. When he said that all the German delegates laughed openly. But it turned out to be true, because now that the gas is unavailable, the Germans are complaining that the gas the US is selling them is wildly expensive. It really is going to harm German industry terribly. Recently Trump said that the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US, and that is also completely true. I don't know who tells Trump what to say, but sometimes they get it right.
I have no respect for the LePen family or Meloni. I do have respect for those few independent journalists who do not believe that Putin is 100 Hitler brains in a Godzilla body. He is doing exactly what it was predicted he would do, when the US took its provocative steps. His response has been far more limited than it could have been. These most recent attacks on Kiev, for example, are exactly the sort of thing that the US does on the first day when it attacks a nation.
So I acknowledge that both sides live in propaganda bubbles. The US-backed narrative is ridiculously simplified so as to make Putin and Russia into irrational madmen. And that is what gets repeated on this forum. People repeat the propaganda slogans to each other, and feel like as if they're in the right. And this leads them to cheer when people die.
If I make any specific claim which you feel is wrong, please address that. I'd be happy to see objective reporting from other sources, as the sources I see are also not perfect. It's an ongoing process of weighing and sifting.
Thank you again for responding with such kindness. It's a pleasure to talk with people who can do this in a grown-up way.