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Easy arguments against the Bible, and religion as a whole
RE: Easy arguments against the Bible, and religion as a whole
Okay, Chipan, I think I've gotten all I need to get out of this discussion.
It's already devolved into a "yuh huh"/"Nuh uh" matchup and I've not only already proven my point and you've been completely unable to do anything other than repeat your arguements and re-quote already refuted points, so there isn't much more for me to do here.

So, barring some new arguement of yours, I'll leave you with this post and this bit of advice.

1) I don't know who you are or what gender you are, but you need to learn about women, the crime of rape, the history of slavery (sex and otherwise) and even some fiction about it. I've done all of the above.
Your rape related responses show an ignorance of the crime and circumstance so baffling to me as to equate rape and not-rape to completely depend upon whether or not the woman screamed.
I don't know if this is ignorance on your part or just you trying to make the bible appear to be consistent with modern moral conventions, but it is not consistent even within itself in these regards and certainly not with modern conventions, which have evolved to a hgiher playing field.

I've recently moved to texas and not only have I raided my local library just on non-fictional stories about women in general but their foibles, sexuality, and history. I would bid you to do the same. At the very least, perhaps you should make a regular viewing of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit if you don't want to put in a regular effort into reading as many books on the subject as I do.

2) Your issues of slavery don't fare much better than your conventions on rape. Since you're under the false delusion that biblical slavery is different from any of the other kinds of slavery - perhaps at the very very least you should start with the assumption that the only rights given to a 'servant' is zero and then add all the rights as explicitly stated in the bible. The best case you've presented thus far is that servents of family and close friends and countrymen should be treated better than others but as I've quoted from the bible, it is remarkably specific on who you should treat well at all because for all your statements on how it applies to all slaves, you've fallen short on applying it to all slaves.

In conclusion, as I've told others here, I'm assuming you're making these horrible assumptions out of a wanton desire to keep whatever rose-tinted view of the bible unchallenged in your mind. That is my hope, because otherwise, you're just an apologetic - knowingly defending the indefensible. At least with your ignorance, there is the hope - my hope - that you'll eventually just read the bible as it is written rather than how you choose to interpret it.
You'd be amazed by how many atheists became atheists because they sat down and actually read the bible and allow what it says to stand on its own merit instead of allowing the apologetic footnotes on each and every verse and passage to essentially alter the bible so much that it just says what they need it to say.

In any case, I respond here in the hopes that you actually bring up a new arguement.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: well, we don't need a judge let's look at the science.
I'm going to stop you right there because I can't honestly stand to look at the bullshit you posted afteward.
Have you really chosen to nitpick at the details of how screaming means rape and not screaming doesn't mean rape?
That's not science. That's bullshit. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You haven't mentioned one damn detail about rape in the bible - you've now just devolved into explaining how consent matters less than whether or not the woman is able or willing to call in the big strong men to help her.
Stop sidelining the issue.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: no not some, try ALL. those laws of slavery apply to all slaves not some.
No - SOME, Chip. I said some. I meant some. I've quoted (some of which were yours brought into proper context) in the bible how only the "better" treatment of slaves only applies to some.
I'd say "ALL" if there was a passage SOMEWHERE in the bible that mentioned ALL but there isn't. Not one.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: i have too

Leviticus 25 Wrote:39 ‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. 40 As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee.

as a HIRED servant. gee, sounds like a job to me.
The passage states that you will not compel "one of your bretheren who dwells by you who became poor and sells himself to you" to serve as a slave.
Granted I paraphrased, but I left the full quote above so perhaps this time you can actually show me how I might be wrong. The rest of the chapter doesn't make this individual quote apply to all slaves either. It just tells you not to sell a person with a particular relationship to you in a particular circumstance into slavery. It isn't all people or even most circumstances. It's very specific and won't apply to most if not nearly all cases.

You've failed to make your case again.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: yes it is a standard practice. the bible acknowledges it but it does not condone it just as it does not condone drinking even though it does not call it wrong (though getting drunk is pointed out as wrong). there were rules to ensure slaves weren't mistreated AS I'VE STATED MANY TIMES! no, it does not condone killing them of any sort. it says that and i think we can also apply the 6th commandment to this. yes, slaves had to obey their masters, but masters DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ORDER THEIR SLAVES TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT!!!! i've also stated this many times.
You've stated. I quoted and pointed out in the bible where you're wrong and you've still failed to refute me wihtout resorting to just telling me I'm wrong.
It makes you not only look like you don't know what you're talking about, but it makes you look like you're just saying that I'm wrong because you have no rational or biblical recourse otherwise.

I've already quoted a bible verse that specifically refutes the red-colored highlight of your statement above in a previous post. Putting it at me again in all caps doesn't make you right.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote:
DarkestOfAngels Wrote:Yeah, I read that some time ago.

Leviticus 25:45 Wrote:And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour

yes, but there's more than one place

Leviticus 25 Wrote:52 And if there remain but a few years until the Year of Jubilee, then he shall reckon with him, and according to his years he shall repay him the price of his redemption. 53 He shall be with him as a yearly hired servant, and he shall not rule with rigor over him in your sight.

they apply to all slaves.
and where does it say that? The following passages still only apply to the children of israel and the passages do not change that application.
This is why I didn't bring up the following passages earlier - it doesn't add anything to the pertinent passage.

So your conclusoin is completely off.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: i am not speaking in the case of ignorance. i am speaking in the case when those who can't or don't want to support themselves perfer slavery.
Missed the point. I only mentioned ignorance offhand, but the pertinent line (which you should know to be pertinent considering that several of my posts specifically mentioned it) is slavery - treated well and treated unwell.
I don't care that you're not addressing slaevry by ignorance, you needed to responded to the other point.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: again, you speak of slavery of the worst kind. if slavery of the African Americans never took place, we would have a very different outlook on slavery.
I'm speaking of slavery of every kind.
Black slavery in the USA was neither the worst, the only, the last, or the first of its kind in the treatment or application of slavery. It even predates christianity so I know that the Romans and Egyptions practiced slavery of the same sort.

(January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm)chipan Wrote: we are not talking about sex slavery. that is most definately wrong and the bible does not condone it. the bible only condones post marital sex.

I don't believe there was a distinction in ancient times, but that's neither here nor there.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Easy arguments against the Bible, and religion as a whole - by TheDarkestOfAngels - January 1, 2012 at 10:19 pm

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